Until we can decouple war and the chaos that it brings from the nation's economic health there are no arguments moral, legal or otherwise that we can make to reverse this suicidal trend.

Adam Smith also said that as long as the cost of war can be hidden from the people, in this case by keeping it off the books, underestimating its true cost, and not increasing taxes to pay for it the people will not protest against the war. As long as the sacrifice is only those other people's children it appears that Americans can accept the mass murder of Iraqi civilians, torture, and defrauding the taxpayer. The fact that the U.S. cannot continue to borrow the money for war forever means that it will be the next generation who will have to bare the cost of this obscene adventure.

On the radio today I heard the ridiculous propaganda the corporate media is using to sell the FISA bill. He said that we should be very worried that Cheney wants to listen to grandmothers' phone calls to their grandchildren, parents calls to the Little League, and teenagers gossiping with each other. The jerk then said that he "knew" Cheney and gang could not care less about such phone calls, and he "may" be right, but the fact is that he doesn't know what they are spying on or not either. He can only "trust" that they are not listening to such phone calls. The problem is that it is not those types of phone calls that are what one consider private, such as business negotiations, inheritance discussions, medical problems, and even relationships between adults, none of which are any of their damn business.

This talk show host may "trust" Cheney and gang, but that type of trust is based on faith, because without oversight we don't know what they are listening to. The actions that they are taking are invisible to us without the approval of the court. My personal experience is that one cannot trust these people about anything, let alone put faith in easily corrupted men.

This is America is it not? Are we not taught that one cannot trust anyone? Is that not why we use contracts in business? Doesn't capitalism teach that one never gives a sucker an even break? It damn sure does. Yet they take us for fools who would put our faith in any group of men acting in secret to protect our privacy without oversight or accountability. The disrespect behind such a thought is despicable. Who do these arrogant creeps think they are? Gods? They act like it, and it is time to bring them down to the real world that the rest of us live in from the fairy tale that they are trying to create.

The start of your post made me remember that I could be wrong but aren’t these the same guys hoping for another 9/11?

I mean you quoted “especially as the reason for it recedes further and further in the rear-view mirror.”

I have heard the rightwing guys at work repeating this freakish logic telling me that they hope we are attacked again so the whole country sees that they have been right all along.

But wouldn’t we being attacked prove that they are wrong because even with all the new security we are still not “safe”.

I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

Sleeps With Lions , reread it , and also Glenn's response to the same charge from another corner . Not saying there's no danger, but that it's overblown in both severity, and in it's supposed unprecedentedness.

Good Celery, oncologists - a good thing? Usually, esp if ya got cancer, but depends on the good Doc herhimself. One I know is the cheapest person on the planet . Prefers Cheap Celery to Good Celery, in everything, even though it's a house of treasures. Usually makes for bad soup in the garden , no matter how many green thumbs I lend her.

bucky,Pauliac, ondelette , thanks for Sufi,Nasrudan, and Pakistan . Good stuff. ;D

Dirigo , I'm a couple stone throws from the St Po-leeece Lab, so I'll grab your samples before it gets there . ;D (Bloomberg's goin' nuts . Glad I have some Two-Stones-For-Every-Dirt territory between him & me . ;D )

adnoto, yes there is a certain element of "conquer the beast" to this, but it is real . Doing anything? Yes , writing and calling, and engaging True Believers on their blog-turf , trying to get through. If you look back in previous comments sections , you'll see it from many .Imagine that there's a lot of work unmentioned as well. As Derbig Mooser suggested , other means would be abhorrent, and at least as bad as what they attempt to cure .

Holly, I read Bees first post as if "them" = the WARRIORS , and GG & others will pop their bubbles & expose 'em , although the tone seems to go the other way . ????

Re: Kristol . I normally don't read him . Now I remember why . Other than the irony of it all, and the over-filled, sky-high-falling-off-the-truck level of bs , this it what stood out for me :

"The director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Gen. Michael Hayden, the director of national intelligence, the retired Vice Admiral Mike McConnell, and the attorney general, the former federal judge Michael Mukasey, are highly respected and nonpolitical officials... "

Non-political?!!! The Bush Administration doesn't do non-political . That, in of itself, would be political to them. An apolitical person might be prone to choose facts, pragmatism, or principle over ideology . If they were non-political they wouldn't get the job .

Here's some paranoic comedy I ran across , courtesy of Arlene Peck . (Seems to know a lot of FOX guests . Quelle suprise!) This is just a (tame) sample . There's lots more where that came from . (Talks about Bush in the same way that the RWers talk about appeaser-Democrats. =))))

....It usually takes a lot to keep me quiet but with this crowd I was awed. Three days of listening wasn’t enough. Unfortunately, more of the mainstream aren’t listening or worse, not caring about this war with blood thirsty degenerates.

One of the speakers and best selling author, Dr. Harvey Kushner and adviser to the FBI and FAA spoke of Radicals’ Islam’s infiltrating America. Folks, like roaches they are everywhere and we are losing this war. Dr. Kushner detailed how the United States continues to be infiltrated by terrorists ..."

http://www.brookesnews.com/081802peck.html