When the leadership of a nation acts as if all of its citizens are suspects, it is not because all of the citizens are criminals, it is because the nation’s leaders are.

Surveillance of all Americans and torture are symptoms of cowardice that must not become a part of American domestic policy.

"We were just following orders," was not an acceptable excuse during the trials at Nuremberg and it is not an acceptable excuse today.

Thanks, K, for saving me embarrassment on the front page.

-- nicteis

You're welcome. Glenn probably caught it though without my help.

It is not clear to me exactly when the overwhelming vast majority of America became militarized cheerleaders for war, death, destruction, brutality, and theft; but that is America today.

Up until our entry into WWII the US had a relatively small standing military that had mostly been used for stealing from banana republics of one flavor or another on behalf of the United Fruit Company and their ilk.

If Hitler had not gone ahead with operation Barbarossa WWII could easily have ended differently than it did. I hung out on soc.history.what-if for many years and that was one of the major scenarios that have been played and replayed there by people who know far more than I.

Despite the fact that twenty million Soviet citizens died in WWII Americans got the idea that we beat Hitler and Tojo all by our lonesome, with maybe a little help from the Brits and the Aussies.

The leaders of the Allies, unlike our present cabal, had learned the lessons of history and treated Germany and Japan in a manner that has kept them peaceful to this day, an amazing feat really.

America had tended toward hubris from fairly early on but WWII turned it into a form of religion. From that came the Cold War, the rise of the Military/Industrial complex, McCarthyism and the overweening sense that America was the unquestioned moral leader in the world.

I once mentioned non-interventionism on this very forum and you would have thought I was recommending roast babies in duck sauce; well, that idea might have gone over better to many here come to think of it.

Long pig lends itself better to barbecue sauce.

Somewhere along the line we lost the knowledge that other folks deserve to be left along unless they attack you; yes, left alone even if they are harming themselves with chemical substances, or believe in 409 'gods', or dress oddly, or ...

Utter conviction of the perfection of your own morality is a sure sign that you are going to embark on a course of barbarity. Like the Islamists, the Christianists of the US are utterly convinced of the perfection of their morality and there is absolutely nothing which will convince them otherwise. That conviction is the foundation of their own sense of being and pricking the bubble would lead to a sociological collapse of literally earth shaking proportions. This is why the nastiest images from Abu Ghraib have not ever seen the light of day and most likely never will.

It's been said that we hate in others that which most reminds us of ourselves. The Christianists see their reflection in the Islamists and to a large extent this explains the unthinking hatred that is directed toward Muslims in general.

Arlo: “I love this guy. Dr. Paul is the only candidate I know of who would have signed the Constitution of The United States had he been there. ..."

Aycharaych: 'That's why Paul is a "loon".'

And so am I.

It is not clear to me exactly when the overwhelming vast majority of America became militarized cheerleaders for war, death, destruction, brutality, and theft; but that is America today. I once mentioned non-interventionism on this very forum and you would have thought I was recommending roast babies in duck sauce; well, that idea might have gone over better to many here come to think of it.

Somewhere along the line we lost the knowledge that other folks deserve to be left along unless they attack you; yes, left alone even if they are harming themselves with chemical substances, or believe in 409 'gods', or dress oddly, or ...

Both 'the right' and 'the left' desire a very powerful central government; even if for different reasons, even if for the 'best of reasons.' That is why the central government consolidates power administration after administration. That is why a man trying to sell peace is a lonely fellow in this country.

LBJ is loved by some here; in spite of his violent intervention in Vietnam, and his violent intervention in the domestic economy. Worshiped by some, he is. Sad. On the other hand, Grover Cleveland's admirers praise him for his honesty, independence, integrity, and commitment to the principles of classical liberalism. He opposed imperialism, taxes, corruption, patronage, subsidies and inflationary policies. Yet he always comes in low on the list of 'great' presidents.

Why does the left and the right hate classical liberalism? It is a poser.

"Does it make sense to say you need a warrant to spy on one person, but no warrant to spy on everyone?" - Arne L.

In Hepting v AT&T (the pending FISA litigation), Judge Walker denies the motion to dismiss based on AT&T arguments that the plaintiff's lack standing. AT&T argued that “[p]laintiffs lack standing to assert their statutory claims (Counts II-VII) because the FAC alleges no facts suggesting that their statutory rights have been violated” and “the FAC alleges nothing to suggest that the named plaintiffs were themselves subject to surveillance.”

Judge Walker writes "But AT&T ignores that the gravamen of

plaintiffs’ complaint is that AT&T has created a dragnet that

collects the content and records of its customers’ communications. The court cannot see how any one plaintiff will have failed to demonstrate injury-in-fact if that plaintiff effectively demonstrates that all class members have so suffered."

Test worked. Please try againg.

Pedinska@yahoo.com

Wierd. Didn't get it......

Am sending 'test' from actual addy. Dunno what dint work!