I have no love for Rockefeller or Harman or Pelosi, but isn't it likely that this story is a bullshit smokescreen to deflect attention away from the destruction of the torture tapes? The only source is Dubya's henchman, Porter Goss. I wonder if this isn't an attempt to dirty up the Dems and engage in a little tu quoque as well.

This exchange really amazed me. You have a belief that a certain kind of person understands the issues well. Someone comes along with your complete list of attributes, and refutes you. Rather than question your model, you go looking for the faults and character flaws, because the kind of person you thought would understand why torture needed to be used has told you it shouldn't be.

You remind me of Sir James Jeans' comment about the ultraviolet catastrophe and Max Planck's new theory. Something to the effect of 'Although Max Planck's new theory correctly predicts the radiation levels of a black body as the wavelength decreases while mine does not, the simple fact is that Mr. Planck is wrong.'

Jkalos appears to have spent many years in training, and thinking, thinking, studying and even teaching to the torture issue. Why would the flaws be in his opinion and not the one which resulted from much less thought?

Probably. The timing is convenient, the sources are partisan or untrustworthy - not to mention that spooks are professional class liars by trade (not a character judgment, lying is part of the job). Porter Goss was a partisan hack as a congressman, and had no love lost for Nancy Pelosi. The tapes were destroyed on his watch, he claims he didn't know. Michael Hayden will ally with anyone who will get amnesty for all the folks he thinks need it. Not exactly disinterested parties.

The dirty truth is that lawmakers were informed of more than they want to admit. That they approved of torture by name with a smile on their faces and asked for more -- not so much.

Whoever has authorised or allowed torture, eavesdropping without warrants, etc. should be impeached. That includes Democrats, Republicans, and Telecoms.

This isn't complicated.

I'm glad Oprah is publically supporting Obama. Clinton voted for war and supports the Democratic leadership that supported torture, eavesdropping without warrants, etc.

America needs someone like Obama to clean Washington up.

johnqeniac wrote: "this explains a lot...Like, why the dem leadership has done absolutely nothing to block funding for the occupation, to end the torture, to block mukasi, to impeach bush/cheney..."

AH-HA MOMENT!

Suddenly, Pelosi's bizarre "Impeachment is off the table" statement makes perfect sense.

Why?

Because she'd be impeached too!!!

Thanks johnqeniac and Glenn!

Martin Gifford:

Cleansweep of Washington Overdue

There ain't no such thing as a clean sweep, except in TV commercials and by those housewares hucksters at the state fair.

Whoever has authorised or allowed torture, eavesdropping without warrants, etc. should be impeached. That includes Democrats, Republicans, and Telecoms.

And it includes me. I'm a voter. I voted for a guy who voted for torture. (My only excuse is that the Republican was worse.) That makes me, too, a sinner. Or, as Arthur Silber would say, I'm complicit in evil. And Silber's quite correct. And let's not get into some of the things my taxes are funding, but it's not exactly Justice Holmes's vision of buying civilization.

America needs someone like Obama to clean Washington up.
- - Martin Gifford

Barack Obama? If he's so pure, then why didn't he spend some of his political capital trying to block the MCA? As the rock star of the U.S. Senate, and as a former professor of constitutional law, he was in a better position than anyone to attempt a filibuster. Instead, he kept his powder dry.

Senator Obama is a politician. That means he will compromise his principles whenever he thinks he needs to. Unlike Arthur Silber, I'd consider voting for Obama -- but he's just a guy, not a savior. He won't save me and you from being complicit in evil. It's not that simple.

LWM

When I said wrong I meant unjust i.e. not in accord with reality. I am that rarest of modern birds, a Platonist. I pledge intellectual fidelity to the good.

It's important to remember that when looking for justifications for their totalitarianism, the Jacobins, Hitler and Stalin all turned to Plato.

So ends our interchange. It seems pointless to go back and forth in such a limited medium when our basic starting points are so divergent and there is no real context to develop it into a real argument.

-- Jkalos

It is a waste of time. He's a Jacobin. As ondolette observes:

This exchange really amazed me. You have a belief that a certain kind of person understands the issues well. Someone comes along with your complete list of attributes, and refutes you. Rather than question your model, you go looking for the faults and character flaws, because the kind of person you thought would understand why torture needed to be used has told you it shouldn't be...

Jkalos appears to have spent many years in training, and thinking, thinking, studying and even teaching to the torture issue. Why would the flaws be in his opinion and not the one which resulted from much less thought?

The President's oath of office makes no mention of protecting the population anyway, 300 million or 3 million. He's just supposed to protect and defend one thing, the Constitution:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Libertarians and greens have principals (sic). Something which is lacking in both major parties.

-- Sgt Rock

Thanks for the chuckle, Sgt. Rock!

Sgt. Rock is a chuckle not only because Libertarians and Greens have "Headmasters", but neither party has any principles, certainly no more than any other political party apparatus. The ALP is a totally corrupt joke, as any person who followed the matter would know, and if the Greens really had priciples, they would never take a dime from the GOP. But what the hell, Ron Paul takes money from Nazis.