was just being railroaded by Hoekstra when the GOP had control of the panel. I see now how wrong I was-and how both she and Rockefeller are neck-deep in thier complicity.

I too have read the threads over the ends justifying the means and see the dangers of Shooters' replies that those who leakied the info are doing more damage than those who actually tortured. It's amazing to me-the way that breaking all of our laws, usurping th Constitution--somehow gets justified in the minds of those like Shooter(where IMAGE is everything).

It totally boggles my mind how much the "strong,hero" image is more important to morons like this---over moral principals.

Our country has been looked up to in the past by other countries-BECAUSE of our morality, our Justice system, our system of checks and balances. Witchhunts like these rendition flights,torture serve only as reminders of where historically, countries have gone wrong in thier past. Germany and Hitler anyone? No one man, such as a President-or in this case I suspect VP-has the right to decide to change the moral values of a country to achieve his own means.

Shooter just how dumb are you-to overlook the fact that both Cheney and GW come from oil backgrounds?

How dumb are you not to see the fact that GW has NEVER successfully managed ANYTHING in his life?

How dumb are you not to see that something is terribly wrong when human beings are locked up for over 6 years without any charges ever being brought?

How dumb are you-not to realize if supposed "terrorists" are being jailed in other countries, as opposed to here in the US--that very fact REEKS of corruption,illegality.If it was justified-why not hold trials here in the US?

It makes me wonder whether people like you Shooter, or like Harmon and Rockefeller have any kind of moral compass whatsoever---to never recognize the flaws of your own logic in defending such tactics, when there is no defense of it.

Buying into such amoral, illegal activities means you've reached a point of no-return on the moral slide down.

I, and most posters here with morals think though, that we'll be damned if you(Shooter, GOP, BLUE DOGS) take this country or us down with you on your moral decline into hell.

People have what is called "free choice", and very much resent having that taken away on moral decisions by people with no empathy, no logic, no reality,no moral guiding principals whatsoever. Trying to shove such mistakes like torture and the hiding of tapes under the rug-only ensure more corruption, not less. It does nothing to teach us the lessons of those mistakes-the essence of what mistakes are supposed to do.

http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/12/more_candor.html

December 7, 2007 7:46
More Candor
Posted by Joe Klein

CIA Director Hayden acknowledges that the public was going to find out about the CIA torture tapes anyway, but he still gets points for coming clean. And the revelation is further evidence of the Bush-driven sliminess of the Porter Goss regime at CIA. I'm not convinced that Hayden's internal explanation of why the Gossites destroyed the tapes represents the whole story [...]

- - Joe Klein

Clean?

Points?

Hey, it's only a game.

. . . and Time/CNN have appointed a referee to show us the score.

Nothing in my post indicates that I don't see history, recent or ancient, as relevant. kitt

Except when you say this, I suppose:

Might that be more effective, or at least potentially so, than dragging in every past, present and potential future failure of government and government agents - kitt

The Democratic Party can challenge Bush. Why in the world are they in no position to challenge Bush? That makes no sense. - kitt

It would if you looked at actual results instead of walling yourself in party loyalty.

There will be no moving forward unless it is understood that the Democratic Party is in no position to challenge Bush? How will that 'internalization' moves things forward? kitt

Just about every post on this and other threads explains why: the Democratic Party, as it stands now and has for a long time, is part of the problem, not the solution. It first needs to reform itself before it can effectively lead this country out of its dire situation. That's my view, if you don't mind.

The dust-up with Harman anchored by this post by emptywheel pretty much settled Harman for me: http://tinyurl.com/32hr9r (or, hopefully, you can click on my sig).

As for "free will," I'll see if I can find a link (or, perhaps someone else has one handy - like, William of Occam Timberman, *g*). Neuroscience is beginning to challenge that notion. As a commenter on a previous thread noted, people may be less rational than they are rationalizing.

The kind of problems that get discussed here in UT got a lot worse when the current administration took over. Not worse in an incremental or evolutionary sense. It was a big change. It is clear that a change in administration can make a big improvement. Not at all what I really want, and certainly not what you apparently want. But this continual attempt to show that all politicians are the same is as big a lie as anything the right pushes. And I doubt its sincerity.

There is a long history of a, wink-wink, nod-nod, tacit agreement between the intelligence establishment and the Congress. The few attempts at oversight, the most aggressive was in the 1970's) ultimately were thwarted when the CIA managed to get sympathizers appointed to intelligence oversight committees.

There has been, for the past 50 years, lawless CIA interrogation, torture, and collaboration with right-wing regimes in Southeast Asia, Central and South America, Indonesia, the Philippines, Iran, Egypt and Central and Southern Africa. The Congress knows this and has turned a blind eye for decades.

In the 1950's there were secret prisons, almost identical to today's so aptly named "black sites" in Panama, Germany and Japan where detainees were given hallucinogenic drugs, and subjected to torture. "Project Artichoke" was a billion-dollar-a-year research project to find the most effective ways to extract intelligence. The CIA taught these new techniques around the world to governments friendly to the U.S. The were used extensively in the Vietnam War (where waterboarding was a commonly accepted interrogation technique.)

The ever-popular and universally exported "Brand America" techniques were sensory deprivation and self-inflicted pain (stress-positions). Photos of Jose Padilla, detainees at Abu Graib and Guantanamo all show attempts at total sensory deprivation and some show the use of sexual humiliation. In the Abu Graib scandal, photos showing sexual humiliation being conducted by young M.P.'s was dishonestly touted as the work of "a few bad apples," when it actually is a favored procedure taught by the CIA and now used by the military.

Sensory deprivation, stress-positions, and sexual humilation are used to cause regression, personality breakdown and insanity. The diabolical genius of these techniques is that they do not rely on causing excruciating physical pain; they are designed to cause unalterable, and profound psychological pain -- despair so deep that subjects have been known to try to commit suicide with anything imaginable -- including their own fingernails and to refuse food and water in order to die.

But those "in the know" in Washington, in the revolving-door world of Congress, the executive and the intelligence establishment, have been aware of these abuses for decades and actually think that it is their duty to wall off disclosure of any and all facts from the American public. This has not been difficult.

The hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil American media has shown no appetite for exposing the CIA and the Pentagon's widespread use of torture, practices of our country which are common knowledge around the world. The American people do not demand to know. Like children, most of us would prefer to be kept "innocent" about what is being done in our name. In a 12/05 AP/IPSO poll, 61% of Americans agreed that torture is justified, at least on rare occasions.

Of course, torture, indefinite detention, and all the other common abuses, like a malignant virus, will assuredly increase if they are not eradicated. There is no doubt they will eventually be turned on the rest of us, as they were turned with a vengeance on U.S. citizen Jose Padilla. It's only a matter of time, before the trickle becomes a torrent and we wake up -- probably sooner rather than later -- in a full-fledged police state, with the Constitution and Bill of Rights just interesting historical relics of a bygone time.