"Mike, we've been working at the various parts for generations, but the whole remains greater than their sum. A skeptical person might conclude that it always will. So where is the still point of the turning world? A riddle worthy of the sphinx, don't you think?"

I do not think you have to be skeptical to conclude that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Science tells you nothing about awareness. Science is not even close to explaining all the mechanisms, but it should be clear that what lies beyond the mechanics is beyond its reach.

Dunno about Posner's credibility. And, unknown provenance, but the source is generally very trustworthy. All I can say is, Holy SH*T!

A Question About Those Destroyed CIA Tapes

The prevailing assumption is that the tapes were destroyed to conceal harsh CIA interrogation methods. Gerald Posner suggests another possible explanation:

Re the breaking news that the CIA destroyed the videotapes of interrogations with 2 terror suspects, you might have seen that the tapes of the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah were destroyed.

You might also recall that in my 2003 NYT bestseller (reached #2), Why America Slept: The Failure to Prevent 9/11, my last chapter was titled, "The Interrogation." Based on two active US intelligence sources, I was the first to disclose Zubaydah's interrogation. To date, I am the only reporter to have printed the info about what happened to him.

Zubaydah, wounded when he was captured in Pakistan, was fooled in a fake flag operation to believe that the Saudis held him. Instead of being afraid of the ‘Saudis,’ he demanded to talk to three Saudi princes (one, the nephew of the King, who happened to be in the U.S. on 9/11). He gave his interrogators the private cell phone numbers of all 3. He did the same regarding the chief of Pakistan's air force.

After the U.S. told the Saudis and Pakistanis of Zubaydah's finger pointing, all four men had tragic 'accidents.' The King's nephew died of complications from liposuction at the age of 43. A day later, the 41 year old Prince named by Zubaydah died in a one-car accident on his way to the funeral of the King’s nephew. The third named prince, age 25, died a week later of "thirst," according to the Saudi Royal Court. And shortly after that, the chief of Pakistan’s air force died when his plane exploded with his wife and 15 of his top aides on board

When my book was published, CIA officials trashed it 'off the record,' but made no public comment. I have always held the same position. There is (or was) firm evidence of what transpired, of whether my reporting was accurate or not. Make the interrogation tapes public and then we'll know whether one of the top al Qaeda operatives accused leading Saudi royals and a top Pakistani military man - now all dead - of being his sponsors. And accused two of them – the King’s nephew and the Pakistani air force chief – of having advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. Now, suddenly coincidence of coincidence, the CIA says the Zubaydah interrogation tapes are destroyed. How convenient.

...here's the link to the DR show:

http://wamu.org/programs/dr/07/12/07.php#18236

My comments start @ ~ 38:15 in.

I liked two points made today by the head of the Sept. 11 Commission, the commission having requested these tapes and related information from the CIA and then told by the CIA the tapes did not exist prior to the date the tapes were destroyed:

1 - Clearly, this looks to be an illegal destruction of evidence that should be prosecuted, and

2 - There's no question Congress can find out exactly what happened, "if they really want to find out".

"If they really want to find out." We can ask. And ask. And ask. And put what pressure on them we can. And ask for suggestions on how to do more.

You might respond to my first question. Then I would have something to accept or reject. Do I need to repeat the question? Do you need a glass of water? Some air?

What are your concrete suggestions for achieving your list of of lofty goals?

In short, rather than actually bringing real terrorists to legitimate justice through trials and convictions, the Bush Administration has mucked up the legal cases first by using torture on detainees, and then by destroying the videotaped evidence of torture.

Forgive me for thinking more like a mathematician than a lawyer, but this isn't a statement of neanderthal behavior, or of incompetence, it is a reductio ad absurdum proof that the Bush administration does not have the intention of bringing these detainees before a legitimate court of law -- ever.

As are the simultaneous arguments that the detainees are prisoners of war and not prisoners of war simultaneously (which goes under the Administration invented term illegal enemy combatants).

These are clear abrogations of the Geneva Conventions. Unlike other treaties, those conventions provide clauses for abrogation (American lawyers are famous for telling people that treaties may be abrogated at any time, and so are not real laws regardless of their supreme law of the land status). In order to withdraw from Geneva, a nation needs to announce it's withdrawal a year in advance, and specifically may not do so if it is a party to a conflict until peace has been reached.

So in response to karrsic yesterday: We are at permanent war when the president wants to be at the height of his powers. We are not at war when the president wants to subscribe to legal doctrine that the Geneva Conventions are quaint. We are at war when...

[noblesse oblige is the belief that the nobility is obligated to the less than noble -- that the rich or powerful are obligated to the poor or powerless. Big FDR/JFK thing. Been dead as a doornail since Reagan "made greed respectable."]

[Neuroscientists who don't believe in free will don't understand complexity. Personally, I think they do that to inflate egos and sell books. But it's great material for David Brooks and the American Enterprise Institute's neuromorality agenda.]

Golly, you guys are racing ahead on a thousand pathways today. Is the fact that the NIE reversal comes then the tape destruction admission comes, is it the intelligence community distancing themselves from the Bush administration? Why now?