My skin was crawling after reading shooter's latest.

... is that the Democratic Party seems to think as shooter does. Look, if they'll support torture then there's a good case to be made that the whole game is over with. I generally disdain defeatist rhetoric, but Schumer and Feinstein's support for Mukasay and torture is shocking.

Most people understand that torture works. While it's commendable to be against any kind of human suffering, as a philosophy it's dependent on being willing to endure the consequence of pacifism. Which is, having one's fate left to others. -Shooter

After all, he has personal experience and he says it doesn't work. And one could hardly call him a pacifist. Nor does he seem to leave his fate to others.

Not that I agree with your characterization anyway. Some of the most pro-active people I know when it comes to leading their own lives are Quakers. Many of them very long-lived.

Yes Svensker, yet, they are goose skin bumps!

They are not chicken skin bumps, or, chicken,

sh*it people dumps. That's the difference, ya!

And it is a grand honor.

I wish, O, to share soup.

Awhile ago, I made a negative comment about one of bebop-o's posts.

That was a real lack of understanding, and I'm sorry.

As far as the Republihooligans are concerned, waterboarding is nothing more than the enhanced irrigation of the facial area. The raping of detainees is just an enhanced colonoscopy. Setting guard dogs on detainees is an enhanced introduction of humans to canines or the Rottweilerisation of the muhammedin detainee, and the murder of a detainee is only an enhanced malfunction of breathing methods, see, we don't torture. And I had almost forgotten; stealing elections is to the right wing only enhanced ballot data editting.

...for supporting waterboarding (i.e., torture) as an appropriate interrogation technique.

"There's a clear division between those who have a military background and experience in these issues and people like Giuliani, Romney and Thompson who don't — who chose to do other things when this nation was fighting its wars," McCain told reporters.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/11/mccain_attacks_other_republicans_by_name_on_torture.php

What Svensker said.

Democracy says I have to help bear the shame and stain your attitudes have caused. But it doesn't say I have to like it.

What's worse, we have to bear a shame that the Shooters of the world don't even acknowledge exists. I don't know what developmental stage a person is at when they develop a conscience - I suspect it differs for all of us - but what has to happen for a person to never develop one at all?

It's good to remember to ha ha, or at least smile, when negativism tries to take over. I hope people add to that list.

Did you note that legislation didn't claim jurisdiction over non-citizens out of the country?

Both U.S. law and the U.N.CATCIDT say jurisdiction applies whenever the perpetrator of torture is our citizen.

Not me. It's whether that particular torture is/was legal. That's a separate question from the morality of it.

Nope. There are no legal forms of torture.

Yep. But not currently in use. Considering that nuns of days gone by would now be considered torturers, I'm not to exorcised over it. Should I presume you would just threaten to rescind room service at Club Gitmo as incentive to spill secrets? I know it sounds snarky, but it seems there is no incentive at all for prisoners to talk if you outlaw coercion.

I doubt you ever have been exorcised ;-)

How do you know they are not currently in use? The black sites are not closed. It doesn't matter anyway, there is no statute of limitations on torture, and what has been done is still as criminal as what is being done or what will be done. You are being flippant when you imply that what nuns did classifies in with sensory deprivation, stress positions, waterboarding, dog boxing, sleep deprivation and exposure to extreme heat and cold.

I'm not sure I get the reference, but I presume it's something along the lines of Geneva Conventions, yes? I'm not to worried about it either. Like every other country in the world we'll ignore the UN with impunity.

The reference is to Article 2 of the
U.N.CATCIDT = The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment.

Thanks. Good night.

Wow, one of our esteemed forefathers would've been proud to make that speech!

That's the answer to the question I posed back on page 1. Much has happened today in the interim. The betrayal, and what it means for the United States and for the world, is staggering.

Simply put, I feel that I no longer have a home. This is not the country in which I was raised. ondelette has posted convincing evidence that leads me to believe that over half of our government now should stand trial in capital cases. There is no question that our government engages in torture, and now, given a clear, unambiguous opportunity to stop that practice, our government chooses instead to continue it.

I've already done the usual. I've fired off blistering emails to Schumer and Feinstein, asking how they can sleep at night now that they have ensured that any US soldier captured by the enemy will be tortured. I've contacted the DSCC and told them to remove me from their lists until they boot Schumer.

My only solace comes from hearing that Kucinich will force action next week on his articles of impeachment against Cheney:

Despite the lack of media coverage, however, when citizens are asked what they think about holding members of the Bush administration to account, they respond with an enthusiasm far greater than that displayed for impeaching Richard Nixon at the height of the Watergate scandal. It is this reality -- as opposed to the state of denial fostered by so much of the media and the political class -- that Congressman Dennis Kucinich will act upon next week, when he offers a privileged resolution on the House floor to bring articles of impeachment against Vice President Dick Cheney.

/snip/

Frustrated by the refusal of Democratic leaders to set up a process for holding hearings on his proposal, Kucinich will use an arcane House rule allowing for the prodding of the process with privileged resolutions to try and force consideration. Once introduced, a privileged resolution must be addressed within two legislative days.

Kucinich is expected to offer his privileged resolution on Tuesday. He expects to continue pushing it until the House acts. That action is likely to be a successful move by Democratic leaders to table the measure. Such a vote could be instructive, however, in that it would provide a rare measure of the willingness of at least some House members to respond to the popular will -- which is that Dick Cheney be held to account.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20071102/cm_thenation/1248000_1

More "through the looking glass". In order to keep impeachment off the table, Pelosi will now table it.

I know the conventional wisdom says Democrats are just waiting for the 2008 elections to achieve the power they need to set things right. It's just hard for me to believe there will be anything left to set right at that point.

I need a beer.

Bop--let's howl at the moon a while.