The update post has a hanging underscore tag.

Please delete this after you fix the mistake.

Don't surpress that giggle. Svensker needs something to cheer him up. When I posted the story under Rummy the Dummy, I knew his Paris stay would be short lived. It is funny where he fled. Maybe that's where he learned his torture techniques.

The mendacity on the way to the War On Iraq didn't do it, the nature of the invasion didn't, the detaining of Iraquis, the corruption in Baghdad, and on and on to all the borrowed money and the torture. None of them did it.

The list is, of course, the very long, the things that didn't do it, arouse the American public to put a stop to Bush and Cheney. The dread of a confrontation with Iran doesn't seem to be doing it, either.

You know what? given all the things that haven't caused us to impeach and try Bush and all that, he's got everything he needs to make just about as much war as he wants, including the Kyl-Leiberman resolution.

Really, the only big hurdle he has got in front of him is a draft. Only thing he's short of. Will that be a crucial point for the public?

I remember when Jesse Helms blocked Clinton's nominee for ambassador to Mexico, so why can't Dems do it to Mukasy? Aside from their cowardice, I mean.

Freedom fries cuts both ways, I guess. Maybe they can waterboard themwith a couple of bottles of Grands Échezeaux '83, just to add insult to injury.

Make that him with....

Apologies if this was already covered, but last I looked, Russ was one of the Dems who was waffling over Mukasey.

Said she would support Mukasey at the same time Schumer did. No doubt they planned to do it at same time to get equal credit. Or damning.

If 'he' or a former Homeland Security 'folk' like, say- the former Tom Ridge are hand delivered a packet of info..

Guess what? o, I am so SAD TO SAY this truth,

But, You are now, on a bad-boy-gal, FBI list.?!

we're all on the list.

Shooter - I commend you and Glenn doing the "Code Pink" thing from the rear of the room

Ah, finally the personal attacks. You're impugning my manhood by associating me with a womens' movement, and you're including Greenwald, presumably because he's gay. What the hell?

Tsk. Code Pink is famous for loud and boisterous demonstrations, of an antiwar nature. Not for being chicks. I should have thought you'd appreciate the comparison. I have no idea what gender you are, nor does it matter.

I have never indulged in a personal attack against you.

Indeed, and I believe I've responded with equal graciousness.

Specuating about the primacy of one or another position in the nation based on what lawmakers say and do is not reasonable. Polls show that most Americans oppose torture, waterboarding etc. by far.

And as I said, I don't like them either. In fact I don't think you'll find anyone who IS in favor of them as an abstract. Whether or not they are necessary at any given time is a whole different matter.

Much of Glenn's frustration is the disconnect between what the polls "say" and what Congress does, yes? I take the cynical view that politicians are exceptionally sensitive barometers of public sentiment. If the poll questions were phrased around whether OBL's driver should be sleep deprived or even waterboarded until he cracks, I have no doubt the results would be greatly different.

Most people understand that torture works. While it's commendable to be against any kind of human suffering, as a philosophy it's dependent on being willing to endure the consequence of pacifism. Which is, having one's fate left to others.

I know you like to dismiss polls when convenient; go ahead. But without polls, you are forced to guess what most people think. You're welcome to your guesses; I don't think they have much relation to reality.

Like the 34% that believe in UFOs? That reality? Regardless of polls, the reality that has to be worked with is a Congress (as a group) that perceives it's in their best interest to jawbone their position rather than vote against Bush. As I've said before, it's likely they know something, you and Glenn don't.

Glenn put this differently in his post. But I agree. At some point, after all the temporizing, all the stalling, all the claims that exigencies outside of their principles and their conscience don't cut it anymore.

This confirmation, as Glenn said, was a very small thing. Refusing it would have been symbolic, not substantive. It would have been a feeble attempt to assert, I don't know, something that is consistent with American values.

But, no.

There is a point where you have to conclude that the Democratic senators voting in support of Bush actually do support Bush.

I think we've pretty clealy pasesd this point today. It's not calculation. It's not what you have to do to get anything done. Chuck Schumer believes that Americans should torture people.

That's what he's said today. That's what he believes. That's what he stands for.

It's time to look for an opponent to Chuck in 2010. There are plenty of people, with money, in New York, who don't believe that America should torture people.

And you still can't get through to hear the official rationalization for his support for torture.

Indeed, and I believe I've responded with equal graciousness.

Yes, but you believe all kinds of things, let's face it. As you and I and everyone here knows, you made the Code Pink comment purely to be insulting, and now you're backpedaling. Not surprising.

And as I said, I don't like [torture techniques] either. In fact I don't think you'll find anyone who IS in favor of them as an abstract. Whether or not they are necessary at any given time is a whole different matter.

No, Shooter, it's the exact same matter. Professional interrogators have come out to say that torture is no way to gather valuable intel. In other words, torture has no practical purpose, and is therefore never necessary. Its purpose here in the US is symbolic; to establish the president as beyond the law, and to demonstrate some extra humiliation to our Muslim enemies. Those politicians who choose torture as a method to achieve these goals, along with their enablers like you who defend their activities, do in fact favor torture as an abstract. One might suppose the only time they (you) would reject torture is if it were happening to them (you).

Most people understand that torture works.

I don't know about "most people." The people who do understand torture as being a productive practice are the ones who have no experience in that practice. Our intel community generally agrees that torture does not in fact work.

Regardless of polls, the reality that has to be worked with is a Congress (as a group) that perceives it's in their best interest to jawbone their position rather than vote against Bush.

You've finally arrived at the point of this thread. Yes, that is the reality. Members of congress (democrat or republican) enjoy their level of privilege and access, and are as risk-adverse as anyone with privilege and access. What this means is that Congress has generally abdicated its responsibility to represent their constituents, in favor of protecting their privilege and access. This means we no longer have a representative government, although it plays one on TV. I expect this makes no difference to you, Shooter, until they suddenly cancel Hee Haw or try and take away your assault rifle.