Letters to the Editor
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In response to GB
The Koran is quite long, and covers a number of topics. You have cited 6 passages. Several of them appear to be in the specific context of battle or war, and not in an everyday context. I remain unconvinced that violence towards others is the sole message of the Koran.
As for 8:39 - as I said in my previous post, "fight" can mean a lot of things, not all of which are violent. For that matter, "war" can be taken metaphorically, as well. The fact that Islam is the worlds second biggest religion, and that the vast majority of Muslims live ordinary, nonviolent lives, is evidence to me that most Muslims are, in fact, capable of seeing these passages in this light, and perhaps taking them in the greater context of the whole Koran.
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The words you use are telling
"Mohammedan," "pedophile," etc. -- they are all words from the blogs of extre-right people who really do believe the Islamists are coming to re-establish the Caliphate.
Of course, most of them also don't believe in evolution, still support Bush, and want Tancredo to run for president.
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LeCastor and Aruru
Yeah, I didn't think you could do it, either. That's because there is no ongoing command in the Scriptures for Christians to kill or fight non-Christians, just as there is nothing for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc in their holy texts.
LeCastor, you did exactly what I thought you would do. Do you even realize that you didn't answer my question?
Aruru, thanks for such a nice compliment. I'm either insane, shrieking about Islam in the street, or I'm a paid employee of some nefarious neocon Zionist conspirators. (Well, you also once said that maybe I was a Latin professor at a community college.)
Sure, I can believe that a large group of knuckleheads in this country assert the fundamental, literal truth of the Bible, but by your own admission they are a minority. I asked if anyone could dispute that all Muslims believe the literal truth of the Koran, and - since it is a fundamental tenet of Islam - no one could. There is a big difference there, and if you stop shrieking at me for a moment I think you'll see it.
The second half of the arugment about the literal truth of the Koran is that it mandates fighting non-Muslims. Neither you nor LeCastor could conjure up anything like that in the Bible. That's because it doesn't exist - it is the contribution of Islam to the world.
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"I asked if anyone could dispute that all Muslims believe the literal truth of the Koran, and - since it is a fundamental tenet of Islam - no one could."
Are you really that stupid?
What if I call downstairs to my colleague and ask him, would you believe me if i told you he doesn't believe in the literal truth of the Koran, but still calls himself Muslim, just like I don't believe in the literal truth of the Torah, but call myself Jewish? What if I poll my multitude of Muslim friends?
You are really disappointing.
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In other words,
Do you really think that Benazir Bhutto, Mohammed ElBaradei, Saeb Erakat, Momaur Qaddafi, Orhan Pamuk, Zalmay Kalilzad, Shana Riza, Keith Ellison, Zaha Hadid, Zinedine Zidane all believe in the literal truth of the Koran? Or do you really think that they are not actually Muslim?
This is the dichotomy you have set up.
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LeCastor and Aaron
LeCastor,
Sorry, but this is just not like the donnybrooks of old we used to have. I'm disappointed.
But... go ahead and ask your Muslim "friend" some questions. Ask him about what he thinks Islam's place in America should be. Get him to open up - you might be surprised.
Aaron,
So you think that statements like "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them" and Mohammed's boast that "I was made victorious with terror" are nuanced, subtle passages subject to interpretation?
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Once more to GB
The Koran is a book. Made up of words. Words which, like all words, are subject to interpretation. "Fight" "War" and even "Kill" are words that are, in fact, often utilized in a metaphorical, non-literal sense. This is because they are powerful words, and often the user wants to tap into their power without invoking them in a literal sense.
Jews (and Christians) have managed to take a metaphorical, non-literal view of the more violent and antisocial commandments in the Old Testament. As I have previously stated, the nonviolent, peaceful behavior of the vast majority of the world's Muslims is an indication that they are not mindless automatons either, and that they are just as capable of recognizing metaphor and symbolism as their fellow monotheists.
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Questions for GoldenBoy...
Ok, GoldenBoy, prove to us that you haven't gone down the rabbit hole into Islamophobic delusion.
Maybe you'll have the guts to take a stab at some questions that get to the heart of the issue.
First, most of us understand that fanatic/fundamentalist/criminals -- from radical Islamists, to abortion clinic bombers, to rifle-toting settlers in the Palestinian territories -- are the vast minority of any religion.
In your view, what differentiates fanatics -- who are willing to do harm to others in the name of religion -- from the rest of the practitioners of ANY religion?
Can this be answered without shopworn quotes from the Qu'ran, and claims that this homicidal zeal is what is truly in the heart of every Muslim (and if they tell you otherwise, they're lying -- because Islam told them to?) It'll be interesting to see.
Second, as you know, there ARE in the holy texts of Christians, as we have been noting, a variety of totally ridiculous and archaic rules and laws that followers are commanded to obey.
A FACT: The vast majority of Christian adherents -- including those who claim the Bible is literal -- do not go around killing, stoning and such.
ANOTHER FACT: The vast majority of Muslim adherents -- including those who claim the Qu'ran is God's literal truth (and yes, to address your latest fear, far MORE Muslims do likely believe the Qu'ran is literal than the 30-50% of Christians who believe the same about the Bible)-- do not go around waging homicidal jihad, killing, etc.
So, here goes...
Why are the vast majority of the billions Muslims -- most of whom believe in a literal Qu'ran -- NOT running around killing and subjugating the rest of us, despite passages from the Qu'ran that command them to do so?
Third, that leaves me with one final question:
Given that the vast majority of Muslims -- who believe the Qu'ran and its laws to be the literal word of God -- are behaving in a civilized, nonthreatening way, much like Christians who believe in a literal Bible and its associated laws, and neither group seems able or willing to act upon those laws, then exactly WHAT are you so afraid of?*
--Aruru
* Can this be answered without suggesting that if anyone knows any Muslims personally and that Muslim professes NOT to be a homicidal, fundamentalist maniac, then one just doesn't know them well enough...or they're hiding it -- because Islam told them to. We'll see...