I've seen Frontline; here is my immediate reaction:

1. John Yoo is one dumb sonofabitch.

2. That the FBI now issues its own warrants is very bad.

3. The analogy of DUI roadblocks comes to my mind. Except that this is like stopping and checking every driver and every passenger in every car on every road at all times -- NOT for the purpose of stopping drunk driving but rather in order to make a list of people who (they imagine) might be likely to drink and drive at some vague point in the future.

4. The dumb sonofabitches known as Bush-Cheney think We the People are The Enemy, while al-Qaeda has been left alone since 9/11 to attack each of the U.S.'s few remaining allies (Australia in Bali; Madrid; London; etc.). However, if the real object of the exercise is permanent GOP control, then I guess We the People are their true (potential) enemy.

5. One day the Bush-Cheney people will remove their human masks and reveal themselves as evil space aliens, just like in that episode of the new Doctor Who.

"You people have no idea how to defend a nation." -- Jake007

Wasn't Col. Nathan Jessup the bad guy in 'A Few Good Men', who was insanely paranoid over being attacked by . . . Cubans? What a guy. But I guess the embargo against Cuba will succeed, if given enough time, in making Castro die of old age. So: Well done, Jake!

Jim,

I asked shot042,445,456,795 and Jake the child abuse supporter for any proof of data mining effectiveness some threads ago. They haven't even bothered to try to reply. You would think that an administration that has manufactured every pseudo-proof possible to reinforce their expansive claims would have at least had made an anonymous attribution by now (a la the Iranian IEDs). The crickets are still chirping, and not just on bebop's farm.

Politically Lost:

Bin Laden could not have known we'd destroy our constitution, our values, our military, our future prosperity, our relations with the world so easily could he?

I think he knew we could be manipulated into a war; the rest of this is all just an extra added bonus for him, and proof we (and by "we" I mean our leadership) don't have the courage of our convictions. Too bad, thanks to Bush, he isn't laughing his ass off in prison.

Technically, that sentence is true, but what actually happened, as confirmed today, is that the White House kept going anyway, even without permission from the OLC. The White House continued the "T.S.P." -- without making any concessions to "tougher legal standards" -- even after the USDOJ and OLC had told the White House that the "T.S.P." was illegal.
— sysprog

Actually, they didn't tell them that it was illegal; what they told them was that they couldn't certify that it was legal. This is a fine distinction that Comey stuck to when Arlen Specter tried to coax out of him an opinion that he considered the program illegal. Comey clearly has a sharp legal mind and I'm sure the distinction exists there between not being able to to certify the program as legal and declaring it illegal. From what Comey implied (but left unstated), any basis for legality was so iffy that it was inadequate as a basis for certification.

"If the President has to crush the testicles of the person’s child to save the lives of 300,000,000 Americans, then torture away."

What is your number, then, Jake? How many crushed testicles ARE equal to the death of 300,000,000 Americans? At what point are those scales balanced for you?

Your intentional use of the word "Americans" in that sentence intrigues me. Do you really think the patch of land someone was born on should make such a vast difference in the value of his/her life versus anyone else's?

Let's just make the math easier, shall we?

How many non-Americans would you advocate torturing to save just one single American life? to save 100 American lives? to save 10 million American lives?

How many non-American lives would you end to save just one American life? to save 100 American lives? to save 10 million American lives?

How many Americans would you advocate torturing to save just one single American life? to save 100 American lives? to save 10 million American lives?

How many American lives would you end to save just one American life? to save 100 American lives? to save 10 million American lives?

And much more importantly, how did you arrive at your numbers? Your brain truly needs to be studied.

The sort of logic Jake uses here made a lot of sense to me long ago, when I used to think about things for a maximum of two minutes at a time. When I began to consider things just a little bit more deeply, it occurred to me that quality of life has infinitely more value to me than life itself. Honor has some value to me as well. And when I consider that people who are fighting "for me" might be torturing people to ensure some additional amount of security, I really want to tell our protectors/policy-makers that I don't want security if torture is the one of the reasons we have it. Don't think crushing folks' testicles is doing me a favor. It isn't. I'll take my chances at maintaining my present quality of life without that kind of edge, thanks. And this doesn't mean I don't appreciate American soldiers or that I hate America. I just don't want my "way of life" to be ensured because of a security blanket that includes torture. The phrase "blood money" comes to mind.

We all have numbers in mind where X amount of lives can be acceptable losses as long as it saves Y amount of lives. For some people, X=0 in all circumstances. For most of us, this problem is far too simplistic, and we need more information to fill in the numbers. Some people (secret service and the like) may feel like X can and should be much higher than Y, particularly if Y is an elected representative or a high ranking military official. For the authoritarians in office, I suspect that there may not be a ceiling to the amount of lives they would put in jeopardy to "protect the rest us". One of my greatest fears is that there are people out there (in power...right now...as we speak) who believe that no death toll is too high, as long as we don't show weakness. That would be the worst response of all when given questions such as this.

It really just comes down to what acts you are willing to be complicit with to maintain your quality of life and your security. I don't want to benefit from torture. Is your security so important to you that you will condone just about anything to preserve it? Where is the honor in that? What exactly is your definition of "The American Way"?

Hey! I just had a brilliant idea. You know the very best way to ensure the security of American lives? The fool-proof way? We can exterminate everyone who isn't an American!! That way, the only people who will be threats to Americans are other Americans. And at that point, who cares what happens next?!? America wins no matter what!!!

~Dallas