How else can you explain spending millions against gay equality and against the right to choose, while closing down hundreds of parishes across the country?

Their first priority is not "god" or "social works" but advancing their right wing political beliefs at the taxpayers expense.

So said Emile Durkheim.

I consider myself a Catholic, if only because it pisses off Catholics like the pope and Bill O'Reilly. IMHO, the church made mostly very positive changes in the 20th century, and the current pope (a total dick, I admit) can only do so much to unravel broader progress.

Of course, the church could be on a new path, but I tend to believe that the bulk of Catholics, in the words of a friend of mine, "don't give a shit about the pope." And I think that extends to much of the Catholic hierarchy. When local priests and bishops are asses, it's much more difficult to accept. The bishop in my area recently changed and he's a conservative nutjob and causing some people to stop attending church.

So long as the church is composed of people, it will be able to change. The church is not composed of buildings, or writs, or jerks in funny hats.

---go into any Episcopal parish and interview the folks there, and you will find a goodly number of former Roman Catholics who are fed up with the ridiculous prejudices of the Catholic Church. They come to the Episcopal Church and find the beautiful liturgy, the music, and best of all, the welcoming fellowship for married priests, women priests, gay priests (not to mention parishoners!). And who are the few Anglicans going the other way? The grumpy right-wing bigots. Good luck with that, Benedict.

And le's see Germans in his youth put homosexuals in concentration camps and thought women should stay pregnant and in the kitchen. This shows the pope is true to his roots. He tries to focus on Muslims as a threat, calling them the oldest enemy of the church, when in fact, many elements of German culture were the most virulent antithesis of Christianity. We've all been told that it was a lunatic that took the Germans in the direction of concentration camps for everyone they disagreed with. In fact, all those racist elements were in place long before Hitler, they just bore the most fruit under that horrible regime. We really need to look at where the ideals of the third reich were nurtured. Even the name third reich shows they saw themselves in line with the former German regimes. The point is not to castigate modern Germans, unless they happen to be wielding pope-like power, but to see history clearly. It is also common now to regard World War I as a pointless war between brethren. In fact, it was a fight against racists tyrants quite as capable of atrocities as their sons in the next generation.

I'm an Episcopalian who's been thinking about becoming a Catholic based on theology, tradition, and history, but the leadership of the Catholic church has done some things in the last decade or so to give me pause. I'm also pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, which I assume doesn't warrant me a friendly reception in most Catholic parishes.

How do you "liberal" Catholics manage to stay Catholic, and what are your reasons? I'm interested to know, for my own sake.

I'm not abandoning the church because of rightwingers with an agenda. The church is made up of the congregation and it is clear that the congregation is not merely slaves to the hierarcchy. For example, it is clear most American catholics practice birth control. It's against the policy of the church,but the church won't be there to pay for the rearing of a dozen kids, so sensibly, the doctrine is ignored,by almost everyone.

I want to reiterate that the good is very good indeed, or I wouldn't remain within the church. Read Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton to really get a thorough, thought out answer to the question of why it's worthwhile.

I left the church many years ago because I agree with the Pope. If you are going to "be a Catholic" then you have to abide by the rules. That means, believing that the Pope's word is law. Otherwise, become an Episcopalian, Lutheran, or whatever. I can't do that. I think the Church's position on women, especially birth control is horrible; in fact, unconscionable.

It is all well and good to say, "just ignore what you don't like," as an educated 21st century American. But what about all the poor uneducated Catholics in the third world who get AIDS because the Pope tells them that condoms don't work? All the women who die from too many pregnancies? Oh! But now, if you are an Anglican coming into the church, it is alright to use birth control.

So, I agree with the Pope. People like me don't belong in his church.

Thank heavens.

"But for other Catholics a serious question has been raised about how long to stick it out."

Good. You're finally getting the message.

Benedict has not done enough to make heretical Catholics feel unwelcome. The most important thing for the Church's survival as an institution is to lose the dead weight of so-called "liberal Catholics" who are so determined to make the Church conform to modern, secular culture. It is no coincidence that the "reforms" of Vatican II--replacing Latin, sacred music, and incense with vernacular, folk guitar, and poker night-- immediately preceded a long, steady decline in Church attendance and membership, culminating with the disgusting scandals involving the clergy's Lavender Mafia and the pedophiles among their ranks. Hey, we can't be "homophobes," right?

Anachronisms left over from the 60's can go away already. The most vibrant growth and activity in the Church now is among "conservative," (i.e. Orthodox) Catholic groups. You know, those crazy nuts who actually attend Mass every week and believe the stuff they're taught in catechism.

Most of us see it as far better to have a Church made up of 5,000 members of the truly faithful than 5,000,000 cafeteria Catholics led by wishy-washy secularists-in-clerical-clothing. We know what your priorities are, so go become a Unitarian already.