“So if the Bush administration's policies that resulted in actions taken by the Telcoms at the behest, directon, and on the payroll of several of the "intelligence agencies" (namely DHS/NSA/CIA [insert acronym]--we don't know all who because it's a "secret") why did Telcoms need retroactive immunity from suit, and why is President Obama still trying to cloak evidence of torture in claims of "executive privilege and state secrets", and why are there still active lawsuits going forward on both those fronts despite all those efforts?

Do you think it's all a vast baseless conspiracy orchestrated by people with nothing better to do and an irrational hatred of GWB? If you think it's all "baseless accusations" by a few loony lefties you're a misinformed idiot. There is so much evidence in the public record of "warrantless wiretaps on Americans" pre-dating and following 9-11 that I won't even waste my time doing your research for you.

As far as illegal rendition (i.e. kidnapping done far from any battlefield), incarceration without charge, torture, and murder--they happened. Whether you morally condone those actions or believe the likes of Yoo and Bradbury gave it sufficient legal "legitimacy" based on their fully discredited legal work is irrelevant (there are by the way still professional ethical proceedings being brought against them that are unresolved). The inquiry is still ongoing in both the legal and political arenas.”

Hey rrheard, I just noticed your post referencing my comments and though such an articulate, well-argued post deserved a reply.

First, the reason the telecoms need retroactive immunity in the wiretapping cases is because they have found themselves at potential liability for simply following what was to that point established law and practice. This is not only unjust but compromises national security by discouraging future cooperation in similar programs.

Secondly, I have no idea “why is President Obama still trying to cloak evidence of torture” (or what this has to do with the telecoms) except perhaps he realizes that his ass is now in the sling for keeping the American people safe from terrorists and has discovered that this responsibility sometimes involves some pretty nasty business. But that’s just a guess…

Thirdly, yes, I do think it’s a vast and (definitely) baseless conspiracy, and it is certainly, if not orchestrated then certainly encouraged by, people with “an irrational hatred of GWB.” I have this pet theory that had Al Gore been elected in 2000, he would have reacted just about the same way as Bush did to 9-11, including Afghanistan, Iraq, “warrantless wiretapping,” “torture,” etc., because nothing clarifies the mind like the realization that YOU are the only one standing between millions of your fellow citizens and a bunch of homicidal maniacs.

I actually agree with you that there is “so much evidence in the public record of ‘warrantless wiretaps on Americans’ pre-dating and following 9-11,” but where we disagree is on what this means (well, we also disagree on whether I’m an misinformed idiot, but that’s an argument for another day…). You seem to equate “warrantless wiretaps on Americans” with illegality, but as I noted in previous posts, that is not what the courts have ruled to date.

I don’t even recall addressing rendition, illegal or otherwise, but for the record, I find it hard to work up much sympathy for its “victims.” When you get involved in international terrorism, there are certain risks. As for Yoo and Bradbury, they gave legal advice (hardly fully—or even partially—discredited since as even you admit, “the inquiry is still ongoing”) to the Administration that you may or may not like, but do we really want to start prosecuting lawyers for doing their jobs?

Try harder, dipshit - because it was everywhere when it happened. All over the real news.

Maybe you Republican dumbfucks need to take your heads out of your asses and stop getting all your info from Fox and Rush.

Because everyone else in the real world knows that the Bush administration did, in fact, admit to breaking the letter of the law with FISA, and tried to argue a rearguard defense that breaking that law was somehow "necessary" to our natural security.

It's not my fault if you dumbfuck Republicans choose to remain willfully ignorant of what's actually happening in this country.

This is exactly why you will continue to lose elections.

ROFL

Nothing but liberal rehtoric and lies. The Dems every election always tell the minorities they will give them the store. All free of charge. Housing, jobs, health insurance, etc., etc. You name it! The problem is...they never come through. If one really looks deep at the record and determines who has done what for minorities it really isn't any contest. Republicans, McCain and other leaders have fell flat in their campaign rehtoric getting their story out. They do not fight or give battle. Too docile. There was a lot of fodder to use against Obama and no one said a word. If it hand't been for the economic bust in the last few weeks of the campaign, the Republicans may have won. Palin had come in and given them the lead just before the economy went berserk. But, the blacks with their 97% vote and not voting their heads, gave it to Obama. Blacks generally are against abortion and gays. But they didn't vote that way. The media and Obama had them well trained with lies.

Thanks, jch555 for that bit of critical thinking. We know all Black folk are monolitic, especially when it comes to voting. We always fall for the "bait and switch" of the Democratic party and we never cast a vote because of a thorough analysis of the candidates platforms in juxtaposition to our needs and desires for ourselves and the country.

The so-called "liberal" media does not exist in this country. Most media outlets are owned by conservative corporations whose only goal is profit by any means necessary. Unbiased, investigative journalism with real integrity has gone the way of the dodo. All we are left with are talking heads pretending to be journalist offering up "entertainment" as hard news.

Also, all of you who think that pushing the social issues of gay marriage and abortion in order to win the minority vote; I would rethink that strategy, it is insulting. It is just that sort of political strategy that has brought Republicans to the edge of political extinction. I just wish they would do the noble thing and walk over the edge into the abyss. Oh wait, I did say noble didn't I.