about Jews, it's considered "free speech" ...

Then Jews and their friends cry "antisemitism," (which IMHO it could be "reasonably considered" such), it's "community standards violating" hate speech...

Salon seems to subcribe to the idea that "antisemitic" exists only as an ugly epithet...

I have fought in previous battles and lost, it's why Salon gets neither my money or my respect or my support. I am amazed you have not already been deleted.

Xantrho: "As usual, the Jew Hater just can't contain himself, and starts channeling Julius Streicher."

What's this "Jew Hater" nonsense? The idea that somebdoy can't disagree with Israel's actions without "hating Jews" is absurd. Mostly, though, it's childish, and it lowers the level of the discourse.

You can't see what is in another person's heart. You can only see their statements, arguments, facts, reasons.

Clearly you have a stake in this that short circuts your rationality and takes you to an emotional level. Can you admit this much?

You addressed this comment as a response to one of my remarks:

(your words in italics)

"...secular, egalitarian social democracy. Perhaps if they could point to one nation with a Muslim majority that successfully functioned that way..."

What, are Muslims too sub-human and therefore incapable? There is a country named Turkey, doesn't sound like you've heard of it. Go look it up...

i'm glad you brought up the case of Turkey. I know a little bit about the Turkish political system. And having done a recent search, I've learned even more: it seems that as of the Spring of 2008, the nation of Turkey has agreed to return the properties it confiscated from minority religious communities in the country, over the years immediately preceding.

http://www.science.co.il/hi/Turkish/

Although the Armenian minority still has quarrels with how that will work out for them, it's progess, and I applaud that. Apparently the Turkish government agreed to that settlement primarily because it was a precondition of joining the European Union.

This was the state of affairs, as recently as 2005:

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/Assyturkey.html

At any rate, Turkey is a notable exception- the first Muslim nation to recognize Israel, and, if I'm not mistaken, it's top partner in economic trade.

What do you think Hamas thinks about that?

I don't judge the attitudes of individual Muslims- certainly not to characterize them as "subhuman", or "incapable" of supporting secular, egalitarian democracies that allow religious minorities full civil and religious rights. But that attitude does go against traditional Islamic doctrine, which advocates the inseparability of the dictates of the religion and the power of the State to an extent that's awfully pervasive.

Turkey has had a long and convoluted history that over time allowed it's leaders to finesse and eventually loosen the bounds of that restrictive doctrine. But doing so goes against the traditions of Islamic religious thought, which is at least as theocratic as the Roman Catholic Church ever was at the height of its power (although Islam doesn't have any structure that's closely analogous to a Papacy or a hierarchal clergy. ) Islam's theocracy is more doctrinally based. For example, Islamic law, or shari'a, demands that all legal interpretations and precedents conform to Islamic principles of morals, ethics, and personal and civic propriety. I find many of those principles to be sound and well-reasoned, personally. But Shari'a simply doesn't tolerate outside influences. There's no way to argue the law in that system without being a Muslim scholar, thoroughly familiar with the Koran- which means knowing fluent Arabic, incidentally, since the Koran is widely held to be untranslatable.

The Islamic traditionalists don't want to take on the government of Turkey from the outside. It's too powerful. But they would if they could. They'd prefer to do it from the inside, if possible.

Xanthro As usual, the Jew Hater just can't contain himself, and starts channeling Julius Streicher.

What's this "Jew Hater" nonsense? The idea that somebdoy can't disagree with Israel's actions without "hating Jews" is absurd. Mostly, though, it's childish, and it lowers the level of the discourse.

Spout off Jew Hating nonsense, such as Jews control banking and financial systems, be prepared to be called what you are a Jew Hater.

You can't see what is in another person's heart. You can only see their statements, arguments, facts, reasons.

Sure I can. Words and actions are windows into the heart. Someone talks about how Blacks steal and rob and are no good. That person is a racist.

Talk about how Jews suck, are fucking pussies (Direct quote no less) that person is a Jew Hater.

Clearly you have a stake in this that short circuts your rationality and takes you to an emotional level. Can you admit this much?

What stake would that be? I have know. I'm neither Jewish, don't believe in the Rapture or anything remotely like it.

What I can detect is racism and Jew Hatred.

That you need to jump into this thread defending Jew Hating rhetoric speaks to your heart as well.

Did you actually miss the Hitler was Right, and Jews are fucking pussies part?

What would you call that, polite table conversation?

First, I'd like to say that I consider you a friend, and I respect you a great deal. I hope we can disagree here and still maintain a friendly dialogue.

Having said that, I agree with you that the Anti-Semite bomb is thrown around too lightly, generally, but in the specific case of Steele The First, it really seems to fit.

e.g. -

Yes, I do find most Jews elitist and racist. You can label me whatever you want, but that is what I see, and I know who I am. I am not an anti-Semite, I am not a Jew hater, and I wish violence and discrimination against no one. That is EXACTLY WHY I say that most of the Jews I see in the world today are racist and elitist.

So fuckin' sue me.

If I were to say, for example, "most blacks are lazy", I don't think there would be much argument about whether that was a racist statement. He didn't stop there, though.

Listen, I know there is no such thing as "the Jews." I know there are good and bad Jews the wold over. But overwhelminlgy, in my experience with the world in the past 20 years, I have to say, in all honesty, I have found the Jews that I have met and seen to be very racist and very elitist. They just don't give a shit about anybody but their own.

Again, what if I said, "there are good, hardworking blacks, but most of them I've met over the last 20 years are lazy and don't give a shit about anything"?

Next:

And yet you wonder why you are hated. You wonder why people strap bombs to themselves in order to kill you. You wonder why anti-Semitism just doesn't seem to go away.

You are the biggest fucking pussies, the loudest fucking whiners, the most spoiled, coddled, ungrateful, selfish fucking assholes on this planet.

Is it really hard to read between the lines of that statement?

Steele may actually believe that he's not a racist, and people may throw the Jew hatred epithet around a lot more than is warranted, but in this case, the shoe doesn't just fit, it's tailor-made.