We might have to torture people to bring an end to torture. Many millions might have to die to enable the being of a few.

Well maybe, if people can tear themselves away from the latest episode of TV crap, and venture to the mall, will they finally get a sense of what tactics we use to so effectively spread democracy. Obviously the vast majority of Americans only watch the 10PM fox news for their spoon-fed daily dose of propaganda. So we will rely on Hollywood to try to get us morally outraged...

It is a wonder that our vision of freedom is not as contagious as smallpox, no?

We should be rioting in the streets, striking and refusing to pay our taxes, at least during commercials. Oh wait now there's TIVO. Kill your TV!!!!!

Dear Editor:

The revalation that the US government has kidnapped people, and then sent them to other countries to be tortured, is not only abhorrent, but also shows a very strong weakness in our country's system-of-government and the absolute ineptitude of those always vaunted but rarely effective, "checks and balances."

The fact that the Bush Administration could do such a thing, and the fact that it could be done in complete secret, without any sort of oversight or immediate revalation, means that something is certainly rotten, not only in our present presidential administration, but also in our country's actual governmental system.

Even worse, there is no judicial mechanism through which those ultmately responsible for these actions can be punished.

Sincerely yours,

Arthur C. Hurwitz

Regarding rendition and black sites "much remains a deep secret".

This is not really true. There's plenty of information out there from innocent people who have since been released (sometimes after years of incarceration) and from some of the perpetrators.

It's more likely that people just don't want to hear the truth or refuse to comprehend the implications of what they are hearing.

I'm sure that if the US mainstream media really made an issue of this (which they won't) and brought it unavoidably to the attention of the public, things would change.

After all, this must go against so many things Americans claim to hold dear - individual rights and freedoms, respect for the law, etc - so why aren't we hearing more about this?

You can be sure that outside America, especially in the Muslim world, these acts are known about and discussed (and - sometimes - exaggerated), and have helped to comprehensively trash America's good reputation.

Say the word, and as inevitable as a conditioned reflex, the question pops up: "would it be worth it to have tortured one person to stop it?"

Would it have been worthwhile to have listened to one intelligence report? To have had one meeting of the WH counter-terrorism group under Cheney? To have spent a few hours coordinating one intelligence agency with the other? To have made sure that the country's air-defense system was at least semi-functional?

The lurid torture fantasy works beautifully to deflect the obvious.

etyfreak wrote:

<<Okay, now the other side. 3,000 people died on September 11th, would it be worth it to have tortured one person to stop it? 10 people? How about an extreme: is it worth the cost to torture one person to save the lives of every American (e.g. a biological attack)? I say yes.

Is it worth it to torture ten people to save the lives of your parents? ... Torture is terrible, but it is not as bad as murder.>>

Okay by that reasoning, what is the level of acceptable breakage -- simply put, the wrong guy? Is it acceptable to torture or render 1000 people if 100 of them are a case of mistaken identity.. or 10.. or 300... or just one? Guess it depends on who the person is getting tortured? I mean, torturing my parents to save yours would be terrible, but torturing yours to save mine? Hey, I don't even KNOW you...

Then again, if we just tortured EVERYONE think of the lives we could save! Why stop with suspects? Let's make it the patriotic duty of every American to voluntarily submit someone to rendering... anyone! Once everyone in America -- and hey, why not, the whole world -- has been rendered and told their captors everything they know or even whatever their captors want to hear, we'll have ALL the information. Or someone will. Not us. We don't have the right security clearances.

Whew. I feel safer already.

Torture is terrible, it causes horrific damage to both torturer and subject. 2 or more people, suffering for the rest of their lives because of it. Our renditions have repeated this over and over for maybe a few thousand people. I believe at least some of them were innocent of any crime, which is the worst part.

Okay, now the other side. 3,000 people died on September 11th, would it be worth it to have tortured one person to stop it? 10 people? How about an extreme: is it worth the cost to torture one person to save the lives of every American (e.g. a biological attack)? I say yes.

Is it worth it to torture ten people to save the lives of your parents? What about someone else's parents? I don't like the Bush Administration, I don't trust them, but I think they include these calculations in their policy decisions, and I think the Democrats should too.

Torture is terrible, but it is not as bad as murder.

You write that waterboarding is "simulated drowning" . In fact, it is actual drowning, with water actually being forced into victims lungs. See SMall Wars Journal for debate.

Million year freakshow, what the hell is wrong with you? Seriously, what the fucking hell is wrong with you? Any normal child would BRING THE FUCKING KITTEN IN FROM THE COLD!!!

One way or another, YOU ARE THE PERSON THAT GREW FROM THAT CHILD. You are one seriously damaged freak. Anyone who was remotely close to normal would presumably be much more remorseful than you seem to have been. And they would presumably post their comment anonymously. I wish I could say that your apparent lack of empathy, remorse, and shame disqualify you from being human but unfortunately they do not. I can say that the term psychopath comes to mind, however.

In any case, thank you for your insight on torture. Too often, people get wrapped up in foolish notions of empathy for torture's victims without giving thought to the bigger picture of how hard it must be for the torturer.