"Actually, what you've been doing is making assertions about what trans people experience and trying to refute everything said in response."

I'm not making assertions on a T person's experience. I have no doubt a T person feels they are the wrong gender. I'm asking WHY and whether this is a physical problem or a mental problem.

"It doesn't appear to me that you're willing to give any ground, and would rather continue to characterize trans people as insane than acknowledge and consider any other viewpoints."

Here we go again, because all you've really offered are "feelings". If Oprah were to say "I want surgery that will remove my black skin and replace it with white skin", you would think she's off her rocker! Tell me how "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" is any different!

"The way you're talking to us is exactly how the religious right talks to you."

Oh, please spare me the "that's how they talk about us" bit. Yet another straw man argument to avoid answering real questions. Once again, if you can't explain yourself to ME, you will FAIL at explaining yourselves to the general public.

"Plus, your questions aren't valid. You don't understand us, and you're projecting that lack of understanding onto us."

That's right, I don't understand you. So go ahead and dismiss my "invalid" questions. DON'T help me understand you, and I will continue to think you have a mental problem that needs to be treated in therapy.

There's Exhibit A as to why you were chopped off of ENDA.

Thank you Dana Byer for your kind words about my posts, and for your posts and your commitment!

Thank you ZoeBrain for so adeptly writing about the science I glossed over

and david sugarman for saying that we're heroic!

Responding to Dana

The women who still have a problem with a trans woman using the women's bathroom should get over it.

You know what, in theory I totally agree with you, and in practice I totally supported her right to share my ladies room. Most of the women at my company did.

But here is the thing. My company had an enormously progressive staff and is located in a city with very good LGBT protections by US standards. But it was still a business. It needed to promote a comfortable work environment for *all* its employees, not just the one transgendered lady ... who by the way kept suggesting compromises because *she* was sensitive to how her co-workers felt.

Forcing the issue on the bathroom thing made it more divisive, not less ... precisely because it *was* forced. It made those prone to be uncomfortable overreact.

Absolutists can live in foxholes, but the rest of us live in the world.

(PS I am anonymous on this issue because I do not want myself or this company identified)

dear anonymous,

once again thank you for your extremely thoughtful response. It is a pleasure discussing this topic with you.

likewise!

I'm talking about whether a transgender person's "problem" is mental or physical (or both).

So if I understand you correctly your point is that you think logically there should be a mental solution (presumably pills or therapy) if it's "all in our heads"? I think and others have amply addressed that. Forty plus years of research and therapy by medical professionals and people struggling with the condition have produced no better solution than physical transition, and the current research on brain sex would indicate that gender identification is "hard-wired." Since every behavior stems from a physical state or process, I think the distinction between a mental and physical solution breaks down on closer analysis. Everything, ultimately, is physical, whether its a pill that effects some chemical change or surgery.

"And babies almost immediately begin to exhibit gendered behavior. Girls look at faces more than boys, for example."

Yes, so if you were born male, you (allegedly) exhibited the very same genetic behaviors! Then you grow up and say "now I want to be a woman".

Actually, no. It's lifelong. Often from the earliest ages, I and many other trans people defied the stereotypes of the toys and clothes we were given, the games we were expected to enjoy, and the way we were expected to behave. Barbara Walters did a terrific 20/20 segment this last spring on young transitioners: children as young as three or five quite articulately expressing their cross gender identification, and fitting in beautifully when their parents allowed them to follow through. See ZoeBrain's excellent, excellent post for more details on the brain sex stuff I've glossed over.

Or are you talking about otherwise healthy people? ARE there what we would consider healthy people (i.e., no chromosomal or genital abnormalities) who grow up to want to change sex?

I'm talking about otherwise healthy people. And they don't grow up to want to change sex; from their very first awareness they identify as the other sex. Just as some people are innately good at math or music, or some people are talkative and others not so much, or some people are gay and some are straight or somewhere in between. Somewhere in the brain there's an inborn propensity for that behavior.

BTW, as much as I've enjoyed talking about this (and despite what the attackers may say about my 'right wing posts'-asking questions IS NOT RIGHT WING!-, I AM learning from your responses), I'm kinda running out of steam here (I DO have to work!), I hope I can continue but no promises.

Well, this is one thing we can entirely agree on. I'm glad my posts have been helpful and that you've enjoyed our discussion.

peace ~

Actually, what you've been doing is making assertions about what trans people experience and trying to refute everything said in response. It doesn't appear to me that you're willing to give any ground, and would rather continue to characterize trans people as insane than acknowledge and consider any other viewpoints.

The way you're talking to us is exactly how the religious right talks to you.

Plus, your questions aren't valid. You don't understand us, and you're projecting that lack of understanding onto us.

StellaMaris: Word.

I no longer believe there is any real effort being made to understand (if there ever was).