There's a HUGE difference between GLB folk and Transgender folk in the sense that: Which sex one finds physically and emotionally attractive is not exactly the same as which sex one believes they are at their core. Put another way, who you think you are as a person is not the same as who you're attracted to. So yes, there is a bit of a difference.

However, why should Transgender individuals be left out in the cold when it comes to civil rights? Sexual orientation DOES contribute to ones sense of individuality and ones sense of "person" just the same as one's gender identity does. It's fundamentally wrong to allow discrimination against one group of people who can't change their gender identity, yet disallow discrimination against another group who can't change their sexual orientation.

While homosexuality has been removed from the list of deviant sexual behaviors, tansgender folks are STILL classified as having a mental illness and treated as freaks in our society. (Ironically they're specifically excluded from the ADA, lumped in the same group with pedophiles.)

Has you forgotten from whence you came? To me, it sounds a whole lot like you're saying, "I got my civil rights, screw you."

When are we on the progressive-left going to learn that the essence of politics is compromise?? Barney Frank's bill is a bold step towards ensuring that LGBs have the same rights and protections as everyone else. If including "T"s is going to scuttle the bill, then they are going to have to wait. I'm a straight, white male, so I suppose I will be told that it's "easy" for me to suggest this. It's not, actually. I have and have had LGB friends and I have seen how they suffer, and I have watched some of those friends die in agony from AIDS, including one who died on the streets. I am certain that "T"s suffer just as much.

But if LGBs are going to get a foothold in this nation of bigots, this legislation is vital. I am for it, and sadly agree that the "T"s will have to wait. But I also strongly believe that the LGB community's first order of business upon securing these rights and protections is to word damn hard to see that "T"s get them as well.

Her last two posts are further proof.

And Sugarman, your iron-o-meter is very, very broken. Quick like a bunny, go procure another.

And John Aravosis, maybe Ms. Runs can't teach you to be a man, but she sure could teach you to be a mensch.

i was wrong. you were sarcastic and i took it literally - it's emblematic of the misunderstanding. as you see, John Aravosis also missed it. as far as lesbians hating men, that's just been my experience. the few lesbians that i got to know, seemed to have been sexually abused by male members of their families so, understandably, men aren't their favorite beasts. your experience is different - and since your sample is so much bigger, i take your word on it.

what i DON'T take words for is the 25m bandied about by Aravosis, though i fully understand the political expediency of it. you've repeated it too many times. there *weren't* three lesbians/homosexuals in my every grade school class. maybe one. GaYtheist says maybe 5% but not one in twelve. where did you get your figures? the only ones available from the census is that 1% of the households are same sex (and i assume, similar age). judging from the lack of "Anonymouses" it's time for a real survey. UNLESS, of course, you object.

finally, i think it's time for me to leave the premises and leave you to your conversation. i'm only confusing the issue. i appreciate your letting me listen in as long as you have.

You know hours ago I asked about the Senate. Is this bill sans trans destined to pass in the higher chamber? No one has responded. Hmmmmmmm. Would like to have that skinny if anyone is privy.

I was born genetically male, but was lucky enough to have soft features and small bones so that transition was easy for me. I tried being an effeminate gay boy for a while but wasn't entirely happy. I have a nice job, pay taxes, and donate to a number of LGBT organizations as well as a variety of other charities. I have also been married to a man for almost 10 years (omg! a genetic male married to a man! which is strangely allowable even though gay marriage is not.) I find that when I do tell people that I was born genetically male, they are initially shocked, but often times their stance on gay marriage softens. When should a genetic male be allowed to marry a man, only if he lives as a woman full time, or only if he identifies as she? When should a genetic woman be allowed to marry a woman, only if she has breasts removed, or transitions and looks sufficiently masculine? Or should two people be allowed to marry whom they choose to marry?

This is a question that transgender people help raise in the minds of straight people and is actually a reason why T was appended to LGB.

With any minority group, there are going to be subgroups that are more easily accepted than others. Some people would venture to say that lesbians might be more accepted than gay men, or gay men who don't act gay might be more accepted than effeminate gay men. People with transgender history who have successfully assimilated are probably accepted as much as any lesbians or gay men, and often more so. Some of the most conservative countries in the world have accepted and sometimes even supported passable MTFs and FTMs even though they do not support lesbian and gay rights.

Of course there are the subgroups that society has more difficulty accepting, the stone butch lesbians, super fabulous gay men, and probably most of all, the proverbial hairy football fan in dress. Many people in society and probably many LGBT people tend to want to distance themselves from the hairy football fan in dress. That being said, there probably is a way of crafting a bill that includes some form of gender expression freedom without allowing the hairy football fan in dress to use the women's locker room. One possibility is including transexual without including transvestite, or maybe requiring mental health or doctors’ evaluations or various levels of demonstrated commitment, hormone replacement therapy, or maybe plastic surgery.

Overall, many members of the LGBT community have a lot in common with each other. I lived as an effeminate gay boy for a while. Some of my lesbian and gay friends have at least entertained the thought of transitioning. All of us fall outside the male/female dichotomy defined by the heteronormative world. All LGBT people help straight people think more flexibly. Sometimes I think divisiveness only helps the devout Christian right wing fanatics who want to divide and conquer. I agree that gaining civil rights is a very slow and gradual process, but efforts should be made to be inclusive and not divisive. Minorities need to nurture all of the allies that they have. Efforts should be made to word bills with informed nuance and not broad brush strokes.

Thank you for your attention.

Audrey