where everyone has to join a racial supremacist gang of the the race they are a member of, only in the outside world it a relgious supremacist gang that we all have to join. The Catholic Church isn't like Islamic terrorists but make no mistake: they are about forcing people to abide by their rules whenever they have the power to do so. Look the the abortion laws in El Salvador for one example.

Not only are abortions not illegal in Germany, they're covered by healthcare here.

Grounds on which abortion is permitted:

To save the life of the woman Yes

To preserve physical health Yes

To preserve mental health Yes

Rape or incest Yes

Foetal impairment Yes

Economic or social reasons Yes

Available on request Yes

Also: the age of consent is younger and Gay marriages are not forbidden and nudity is passe on mainstream television and prostitutes get mandatory screening for STDs (not to mention union benefits). In any socio-sexual comparison between America and Germany (your rates of teen pregnancy, rape and AIDs are all much higher, conversely), America is attitudinally closer to Iran than this part of Europe.

Le Castor, I used to think you were an intelligent person, if a bit out in left field (no pun intended); but your responses in this thread either betray a poor or incomplete education, or a reckless desire to prove your point so badly that you simply make things up, assuming no one has the time or inclination to check them.

You've already been corrected on Germany, but Finland? Abortion illegal??!!

Abortion is not only legal in Finland, but the terrain of debate over reproductive issues currently focuses on whether the state should pay for artificial insemination and fertility treatment for lesbian couples-- not quite the atmosphere you suggest exists in our chilly little corner of the far north. The Lutheran Church is the state Church, and receives state support through special taxation revenues; but any Finn can opt out of paying these taxes by filling out a simple form, and almost 20% of the population has chosen to do so. Most people aren't very religious, but don't mind paying the tax (which is very small) because in return, you get the right to basically "rent" the church of your choice for weddings, christenings, etc., and many Finns like to stage big affairs for such milestones in fancy old churches. There aren't so many Muslims yet in Finland, but those that are there can register any "community" with more than 20 members as a "church," receiving concomitant tax breaks like any other religious group; and public schools that do have Muslim kids offer the special option of religion classes organized by Muslim educators, all paid for the state. Other options include traditional religious classes based on Lutheran teaching, or the most popular option, a kind of "world religion-philosophy" course. The idea is to offer a smorgasboard of options to discuss religious and philosophical issues geared to the students' and parents' desires and backgrounds.

Enough about Finland-- if you're looking for examples of religious or sexual intolerance in Europe, you'll have to look elsewhere, rather than in one of the most liberal societies in the world. But rather than base your erroneous assertions on "what you've read" about Europe, try actually doing some actual academic research or, better yet, live there for a while. I daresay a year in Germany (or Italy, or Finland, or wherever), and a year in Syria might cure you of the perception that a continent that tolerates a jiggling, topless Madonna trussed up for a mock cricifixion a few miles from the Vatican is somehow less tolerant than the Middle-east.

Do you really believe that Syrians enjoy the same freedom of political, religious, social expression that we do in the West? That Xtians in Syria do relative to Muslims in the West? Travel a little, my friend!!

"Alot of the virulent anti-Americanism in Western Europe these days (and it is abusive, arrogant, and overwhelming), stems from the belief that the quarrel Islam has with westerners is exclusively with the US." Nothing of the sort. It's chiefly because America has become the most abusive, arrogant, and overwhelming rogue state since you-know-who in the 1930s that Europeans are less likely to kiss your super-sized asses these days. You can't embrace unilateralism with such imperial impulsiveness, governing the planet through military fiat (now that your economic and cultural clout has withered somewhat) without causing others to fear and loathe you. Resentment over the fact that your hick-regime has managed to stir up a hornet's nest of stoneage savages with access to hi-tech weapons is merely the icing on the cake.

It doesn't seem like the U.S is actually able to overwhelm anybody in any concrete sense. I think now it's down to a situation where Bush's resentful fundie supporters are just going to refuse to make any concession to reality, they won't give their Satantic enemies the sastifaction. Their dream of proving that Jesus would prove they were right by making Bush succeed in spite of his, and their, total stupidity isn't going too well so they really have nothing to lose. They can afford to indulge themselves in this because the US can't really be seriously threatened

You cannot blame the Pope for the killing of the nun, or the burning of churches by Muslims. Watch their own TV stations and listen to what their leaders say to their people and hear how they talk about the West. There is a movie out called "Obsession" which documents this. Muslims should be held accountable to the same standards as Catholics.

Abortions Are Not Illegal in German, LeCastor-Get Your Facts Straight Please

Not only are abortions not illegal in Germany, they're covered by healthcare here.

Fascinating, because the german embassy in washington DC has a slightly different take:

After years of conflict on the issue of abortion, the German Bundestag passed legislation regulating the termination of pregnancy at the end of June 1995.. Under the terms of the new law, abortion is prohibited. However, a woman who has an abortion during the first trimester will not be prosecuted as long as she undergoes counseling that must seek to persuade her to carry the pregnancy to term. An abortion is fully legal if the pregnancy is the result of rape or if completing the pregnancy would endanger the woman's health. The doctor performing the abortion likewise remains free from prosecution.

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/facts/facts/questions_en/health/healthissues3.html

Apparently, i was wrong about Finland:

Finland's woman-friendly Abortion Act dates from 1970. The carrying out of an abortion requires a doctor's approval, yet in practice the law grants an abortion to all who wish to have one. It is typical of Finland that the country's permissive abortion law was not justified in the terms of women's rights but on the grounds of class equality and public health.

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25777

While we're on the subject, abortion is even more illegal in Ireland:

Abortion in Ireland remains illegal except in very limited circumstances, but women may not be prevented from travelling abroad for abortions and abortion information may be made available in certain circumstances.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/health/womens_health/family_planning_services.html

In fact, here's a handly little chart:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1869009.stm

It seems that it's not as free as many of you allege. If you read the little blurbs under each country, most of them cut off the ability have an abortion after 12 weeks (France, Albania, Italy, Spain). Hmm, go figure.

Gay marriages are legal in some countries, like Holland and Spain, but most others taht even allow that kind of thing have civil unions.

if you're looking for examples of religious or sexual intolerance in Europe, you'll have to look elsewhere, rather than in one of the most liberal societies in the world. But rather than base your erroneous assertions on "what you've read" about Europe, try actually doing some actual academic research or, better yet, live there for a while. I daresay a year in Germany (or Italy, or Finland, or wherever), and a year in Syria might cure you of the perception that a continent that tolerates a jiggling, topless Madonna trussed up for a mock cricifixion a few miles from the Vatican is somehow less tolerant than the Middle-east.

I lived in France for a year, and in Russia for 8 years, and have travelled extensively in Europe for extended periods of time, so no, i don't think i'm basing my opinion on "what i've read about Europe."

Most importantly, i never claimed that Europe is less free than Syria. We were talking about freedom of religion, and i said that US has more freedom of religion than Europe, because of many things, including blasphemy laws, these taxes for the "state church," prohibitions on the muslim hijab, and free speech and abortion laws. And you can't deny that all of those things don't exist, they're right there on paper. What's even more important, is the general cultural antipathy towards Muslims, Arabs, "immigrants," generally, dark-skinned people. I found this to be rampant in France, Italy, Germany and Greece, and especially russia.

And please don't generalize about how tolerant Europe is -- yes some countries may be very toleran,t but Europe includes places like Bulgaria, Albania, tolerant tolerant Balkans, and worst of all, Russia.