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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
To quote you...
"They were somewhat ahead of their time in that regard and I like to think that is part of what has made America so succesful as a nation. Ben Franklin never shrugged his shoulders and dismissed slavery as the work of a "few bad apples" so he could forget about it and sleep well when he went to bed at night. He argued passionately for abolition of slavery even at the Constitutional convention, even though he was at that time in the minority and died without seeing his efforts bear any fruit. He never gave up his ideals. He was an American."
First of all, don't lecture me about Jesus. You'll lose. Secondly, don't use our founding Father's as a intellectual argument when it fits you because they also believed vehmently in a "GOD FEARING COUNTRY" which, by and large, liberals don't even believe in. One trip to the ACLU trying to strip the Ten Commandments off of Government buildings will attest to that. They believed in a God fearing people that had FREEDOM to WORSHIP and SHOW THEIR FAITH in PUBLIC without fear of retribution or imprisonment. Today, we let kid's shave their hair, wear degrading T-Shirts to school, suck face in the hallway, have out of wedlock births, but then the kids can't say a 1 minute prayer before class. If you THINK this is what our founding Fathers wanted you'd be WRONG. So, If you want to discuss their ideals - discuss them all. Not one singular piece of it because it fits your current argument. You have to take it in context, all of their thoughts. But your right, Ben Franklin framed a constitution that said "all men are created equal" and he struggled with a newly formed government that coined that phrase, yet still held people as slaves. As a God fearing Christian he obviously had a point.
What I am concerned about is this polarization between the left and right, and publications like Salon who obviously have an agenda in trying to shape our nations politics (as most news organizations do) at the cost of American lives. They can report it, just do it another way. A way that let's me see all of my former comrades in arms come home.
Like most readers I found the publication of further photo's from Abu Ghraib distressing viewing. That these acts took place is an affront to all civil and law-abiding persons.
As I understand the situation the pictures were only recently revealed to the media and as such are "new" news.
Yes, we had previously seen similar (although perhaps not as graphic) images many months ago but beyond the inital outrage, finger waggling and muttering that "something should be done" very little has in fact happened.
All this available evidence could have been thoroughly investigated and, after sentencing of the guilty (both those participating and those responsible for their conduct), released officially in the context of such a court case, perhaps accompanied by a series of hand-wringing media dissections and ideally, a Defense dept resignation or two. Line then drawn.
But no, only those caught in the act are charged, no politician considered resigning, or heaven forbid, conducting a thorough investigation to then report publicly it's outcomes.
Abu Ghraib quickly became another "non-topic" similar to Guantanamo Bay activities, extraordinary rendition, domestic wire-tapping, the basis of war in Iraq, expensive and permanent bases already built in Iraq, the likelihood of overt combat against Iran and again the real reasons for such actions.
Yes it may seem irresponsible to provide the "enemy" with further ammunition in the form of these images but they are only as potent as they currently are because Abu Ghraib is still an open book.
It is the moral relativism and ambivalence of US leaders that is the real outrage in this matter.
Dear Fed up,
You are concerned with Salon shaping national opinion? I wonder how many people even know about Salon? (no knock to Salon). Are you equally concerned with people like Rush Limbaugh and his ilk as well as the President himself casting aspersions on heroes like John Kerry, Max Cleland, John McCain, Paul Hackett? Rush Limbaugh last week called Paul Hackett a puke. He said he went to Iraq to pad his resume. Max Cleland is a triple amputee. These monsters impugned his service. These people (right wing pundits, media and the RNC) are well financed, prolific, and are overwhelming the national debate. They are saying these things. Do you find it offensive? I do.
These people in power obviously don't care about the mental, spiritual and other ramifications on the people called upon to torture. Don't say the President isn't directly involved when he and Cheney both tried to thwart the McCain torture bill (and then signed a caveat that he didn't need to follow it). This is a top down problem. I find it offensive that they blamed the low enders and General Karpinski. It's Miller that needed to be held accountable. And others higher up the chain of command. Charging Endland and Grainer was a diversion tactic.
And I don't recall anyone calling YOU a neocon. But neocons have taken over your party. And this president and the pundits, etc who are talking values have no values themselves. Christians are known by their love. They are not bigots, scammers, liers, thieves, and pharisees (hypocrites)like your guys. And real conservatives don't like big bloated government and HUGE deficits. What are these guys doing that you like so much? I really would like to know.
Lisa
Lisa,
Yes I am concerned with Rush, Salon, and every other far Right or far Left wing media mouth piece that spouts this mantra of hate. We could argue the point of War Service and what it does to qualify you to rise to national prominence as a politician. It serves one or two main points, and that is you KNOW what you’re asking soldiers to do, and you know the impact of poor funding, i.e. no parts to repair tanks, no dollars to train and hone your skills, etc. In Army speak, we always talk of "eating the same dirt" when we talk war stories and hardships endured. I found Salon through my home page of MSN (which links to it) and from National Media attention. (Which Salon was after, it’s all about the dollars, you can say they had some altruistic motive, but let’s NOT kid ourselves one bit, they were after publicity to pay their 100 staffers just like every other news organization) and I was sickened by their rationale to inflame a few more crazed Muslims to bomb our troops.
Just because YOU went through it (Military Service) - like I did for 20 years in the military, does NOT necessarily qualify me to get into it with Hugo Chavez on a National level. (See John Kerry) But, and this is a big but here, If no ONE who is in Congress has served, our military certainly would suffer. I was still a soldier when Bill Clinton was President and our funding dropped across the board. These FLAK jackets and VESTS everyone talks about in the National Media could have been purchased back then. (It was requested) But funding was withheld. (Hence Cheney’s comments, “You go to War with what you have.”) I also was in a separate Armored Brigade that was perfect for the Somalia mission. President Clinton did not want to put “Tanks” on the ground. We all know the consequences of that decision by having foot soldiers with no Armor to back them up in an area full of armored trucks with heavy machine guns attached. You could blame it all on Clinton, or his planners, or the military for not convincing him, you could blame him for our soldiers in Iraq not having Vests. But the bottom line is this is a very complicated process with procurement, funding, and having the industries and infrastructure in place to produce 1 tank, or 1 vest. But once the decision is made, (by Republicans or Democrats) I believe we need to support our troops and NOT encourage the ENEMY.
I have read more than one report that says our failures in Somalia acted as encouragement to our enemy. They think we will CUT and RUN every time a soldier dies now. This EMBOLDENS them to do these barbaric acts because they think WE, as a society, lack a SPINE to see things through to the end. So you tell me, now that you know this, do we cut and run? This is some of what I am talking about – I love Cindy Sheehan for speaking her mind, but she knows nothing of the effects of pulling our troops out before stabilizing the country and leaving on OUR OWN terms.
Vietnam is replete with examples of politicians playing Warrior with disastrous effects. At least that lesson was learned. You could argue that we don’t have enough troops. The Commander and Battle Planners said they could do it with 180,000 ground pounders or so… We see how that went don’t we? You would again have to blame President Bush Sr. and President Clinton for stripping us down to our current configuration. Cutting entire Armored Divisions to spend more on domestic programs, the so called “Peace Dividend”. That dividend is up to 2200 American lives. When I joined we had 780,000 full time troops, and we currently have about 480,000 (See the pain of those who joined the Guard and Reserve thinking they would never deploy and often missed training with no punitive measures taken) My point is, there are two sides to EVERY story.
I have been married the majority 20 years, and like I tell my wife when she disagrees with everything I have to say. “Honey, I’m kind of a smart guy, it’s statistically impossible for me to be WRONG on EVERYTHING.” It’s the same with you and me, and our politicians. There IS room for dialogue if they would stop going around berating each other.
Do I agree that our government may be doing things that harm my freedoms, yes! And I will work to correct that, but I won’t do it by calling people HITLER, and then expect them to actually listen to a logical argument.
So Lisa, you and I, we can meet in the middle, as can all of America, especially if you and I start taking an active roll in limiting the hate filled messages from our politicians, media pundits, and those who post hate on these boards. Most importantly we need to examine ALL sides to an issue, and then vote our conscience. See examples above in reference to troop levels, funding, etc. before you blame the current administration of NOT providing for our troops. If that’s your “one” issue that decides your vote, I ask you, and every American, to find out the facts first. Find out the facts on EVERY issue, then vote Republican or Democrat, makes no difference to me, because at that point we are an informed electorate – and we are not relying on SALON, FOX, CNN, and the talking heads to shape our minds through biased reporting and hate filled messages.
It's these people who are "convinced" we invaded for "oil" and we are going to make Iraq our 51st state that make me shake my head, and wonder, where did all the smart people go?
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
