Letters to the Editor
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Rudy is a Bully
Rudy is and always has been a bully - the schoolyard kind who preys on the weak and helpless.
I just can't wait for Hillary to put him in his corner through the use of her intellect and high moral ground.
Go, Hillary!!!!!
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Define drowning.
Everytime I hear waterboarding described, my breath shortens, as if I have trouble breathing. The mere thought of it does the trick for me.
I've always been confused when someones says "it makes you feel like you're drowning." It seems to me that the person subjected to this treatment IS drowning, but the torturer stops prior to death. If water is poured into your mouth & you can't breath, you're drowning. I suppose that technically one doesn't drown until water enters the lungs, but I would guess that it does for some who undergo this torture.
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The What If Game
Gibsonsaid:
"So in my view the rather trivial answer to the Ticking Bomb scenario is a simple appeal to the cliched truths of honor, duty, and country.
Am I missing something important here? Is there something I am missing?"
Thingswesaid:
" think it is simplistic to just dismiss Giuliani on this count. Are we so moral and righteous, exposing our fellow citizens to this terror"
There is a difficult distinction to be made between using torture to garner information and maintaining one's moral grounding. I understand why you make such arguments, but these are merely "what if" games. What if you waterboarded and saved thousands of lives? What if torture uncovered a dangerous plot?
Well, that game is not so one-sided. What if such torture resulted in the deaths or permanent physical damage of innocents? What if such measures result in absolutely no truthful evidence and resulted in faulty intelligence that saved no one? What then?
At what point do we decide that subjecting both enemies and innocents to torture becomes justified? At what point do we decide to cede moral authority for inhumanity? At what point do we forego our distinction as proponents for equality and justice under the law for pursuing torture in dark prisons? At what point do we abandon justice and our principles?
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A GOLDEN RULE FOR DETENTIONS AND INTERROGATIONS
The Administration’s detention and interrogation practices have been questioned and defended in legislative hearings, opinion articles, judicial decisions, and other forums. Throughout -- including discussion of the iteration of the policy issued July 20 -- a fundamental question has been virtually absent: Would the Bush Administration object if captive Americans were subjected to such treatment? We can add -- Would presidential candidates?
There has been some speculation that our use of harsh interrogation techniques sets a precedent that might endanger future GIs who become prisoners of war. But the greatest discussion has centered on which legal regime is applicable (e.g., Geneva Common Article 3, Army Field Manual), the legal status of the persons held (e.g., prisoner of war, enemy combatant, U.S. citizen), defining classes of treatment (e.g., torture, cruelty, “enhanced methods”), and on whether specific practices (e.g., water-boarding, marathon interrogation, sleep deprivation, stress positions, exposure to cold, sexual humiliation, menacing with attack dogs) fit within particular classes.
The Administration contends that these matters are complex and subject to ambiguous guidance. But a definitive understanding of all those factors is not necessary to evaluate whether particular detention conditions and interrogation practices are appropriate policy. The fog thins if one begins the inquiry at the Golden Rule: Would the U.S. object if captive Americans were subjected to the treatment in question?
The Golden Rule often is found in some form or other in cultures that otherwise differ markedly in their traditions of law and justice. The reason: By asking whether you yourself would object to being treated in the way in question, the Golden Rule leaves no place to hide cruelty and hypocrisy behind a particular culture’s definitions or legalisms.
For example, in a discussion of whether water-boarding is torture or a mere “dunking” (as Mr. Giuliani or Vice President Cheney might argue), the adversaries can comfortably end with both sides “agreeing to disagree.”. But it is less easy to leave the issue unresolved when the question is, “Is it acceptable to us for captive Americans to be water-boarded?”
The Bush Administration and presidential candidates need to be asked a similar question about every detention condition and interrogation practice. Other questions to ask: Would we object if captive Americans were treated like the captives at Guantanimo? at the CIA’s “black sites”? at prisons we operate in Afghanistan and Iraq? like suspected terrorists held in American military prisons and brigs?
If the answer is no, then American soldiers and travelers abroad ought to be told that.
There is no need to ask whether we would object to American citizens being held indefinitely without charges, counsel, or being told the evidence against them. Already, the State Department has objected to Iran’s detention of Americans under such circumstances – to no avail. It’s hard to get moral traction when you complain about practices you yourself follow.
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I have an answer to doc5467
The reason I might sit on my hands is due to the fact that the Democrats have DEMONSTRATED their lack of opposition to torture. They have not made it a campaign issue. They have not put holds against things like the Military Commissions Act, or been willing to fillibuster. The Democratic Senate has been unwilling to censure Bush/Cheney for torture. The Democratic House has taken impeachment off the table for this lawlessness.
As the Republicans have demonstrated that they will accuse the Democrats of being weaklings anyway, that cannot be the reason. There is only one other conclusion, and it ultimately is why I may not vote: The Democrats agree with the Republicans concerning these powers. They want the freedom to torture, disappear prisoners and wiretap, if one of them becomes President. The only way to convince me otherwise is for Clinton, Obama, Biden, Dodd etc. to use every tool at their disposal to stop this shit NOW.
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LarryRiedman
No, the question that must be asked of every candidate who doubts that waterboarding is torture is the following:
if your son or daughter are ever captured by a hostile group, would it be OK with you if they were waterboarded?