I am already so unacceptable to most religions, faiths, churches and cults therein on so many different issues and levels even before we get the subject of sex, that honestly there is no point in seeking acceptance even if there was some reward that came with it, which there isn't.

Lilly wrote:

-snip-

For supporters of gay marriage, it means avoiding the possibility that friends who are homosexual will never achieve marriage status, and for those on the other side of the debate, it means the religious communities they belong to won't be forced to comply with a state mandate with which they disagree.

There is no legal requirement for any church to provide a civil marriage ceremony to any couple on demand. In this sense, churches have always been free to discriminate. Unless the 1st Amendment is repealed, this isn't going to change any time soon.

By spreading the false fear that the government can force churches to marry same-sex couples, it's harder for same-sex couples to achieve legal civil equality.

The ceremony -- with the preacher/priest/whatever and all that -- is not a legal marriage. It's a religious ceremony. Churches don't marry people under the law.

A church can marry me to a duck or a tree or to 50 men - there are no limits. It's not a state recognized or sanctioned marriage, wouldn't grant me any rights - but they can do it. The religious sacrament of marriage really has nothing to do with the legal marriage.

And no matter where you are, you can get married without a church signing off. Everything I've read says the clerk at the office where you get your license can sign - it doesn't need to be anything else.

These ministers are what are known as false teachers. No where in the Bible does it say that people of the same sex should be married. It is very sad that these ministers are directing people straight into an enternity of Hell... Read the Bible for yourselves, find the TRUTH of GOD's WORD...

Do not let these false teachers tickle your ears. Homosexuality is a sin, and, just as lying, stealing, and all sin leads to Hell, homosexuality where lead you there as well. Seek after Jesus Christ, let the Holy Spirit show you the TRUTH...

Show me where I am wrong. Show me where in the Bible it say's these ministers are right.

The homosexual community wants everyone to except them. A some point a church will be required to marry same sex couples regardless of what that church believes. There will be no tolerance of those who do not except same sex marriage.

Read the Bible folks, this is history repeating itself...

Oh that's just brilliant...and this is your first and only post on salon.com. Typical.

I'm not going to even try to repudiate your claims. You are free to your beliefs. What I want YOU to get through your dense head is that we don't WANT nor CARE ABOUT your acceptance. Personally, I don't care if you don't accept me. I don't care any church doesn't accept me. What I do care about is if my government legally discriminates against me.

So.....take your preachings elsewhere. And kiss a snake while you're at it.

Some commenters are confused or misled.

Every state's license looks different, but in fact, you cannot get married without an officiant-- of some sort. The NYState license asks for the name and signature of the "officiant." It also asks if the ceremony was "religious or civil." The bride and groom sign-- but so does the officiant, and so do 2 witnesses. Absent any of these: no marriage.

"Officiants" can be clergy, justices of the peace, or boat captains. There are even some clever ways to get credentialed online-- as the government does not regulate exactly what you have to do to "be" a clergyperson in your said "faith." But you've gotta fit in one of these criteria to "officiate." That's why this act of refusal on the part of progressive clergy is significant. It means you've got to find a judge or a ship captain or a justice of the peace to sign that paper as having officiated at your wedding, even if you get married in a church. Because those clergy won't sign. They are, in effect, forcing people to have civil ceremonies.

And this is the way it works in Europe. People get married at the courthouse (most likely a small ceremony) and then they may (or may not) have a church wedding, or hold any other private ceremony they'd like.

Here in the States, the license is a "permit" really. With that paper, you can get married. If you find an officiant and 2 witnesses, you can get hitched. But a couple CANNOT do this for themselves.

Actually, Tanya M, a clergyperson is not necessary in the case of Quaker weddings, in which the bride and groom simply make vows in front of witnesses. In such a case, a witness signs the marriage license where a clergyperson normally would. (In Pennsylvania, they even have a special wedding license for Quakers.)

Also, not all states require a witness. In Illinois, for example, all that is necessary is the clergyperson's signature. No witness signatures are required.

Seriously, I have to wonder how old you guys are (as in, "mental maturity). It's pretty teenage to start EVERY thread about gay marriage (and some that are on different topics entirely) by attacking ME PERSONALLY...long before I have even posted a single word.

Can you honestly believe that I alone -- just me -- am the sole, oddball, wackjob who is opposed to gay marriage? You know -- not like the majority of California voters who passed Prop 8? Or the voters in 41 states who voted to ban gay marriage in the last several years? Whether you agree with me or not (and yeah, I get it...NOT), I am expressing a majority opinion held by most Americans.

And note this: the voices of mostly Ivory Tower East/West Coasters, singing all in PC Unison, and parroting the exact same phrases and talking points, are a unique-to-Salon phenomena. I guess it's very heartening to hear a bunch of bobble-headed think-a-likes, all claiming that "anti-gay-marriage bigots" are "losing"...in the face of a clear-cut win in California, the only state where voters (so far...but yeah for Maine) had the guts to stand up to a corrupt State Supreme Court and say "no" to social engineering.

For what it is worth, Bigguns/Diable (if you are even two separate posters) -- no, I am not fat. My husband is not gay. I do not eat at Golden Corral, no do I watch the Lifetime channel (hate buffets; don't get cable). My comment about movie ticket prices was a weak stab at humor -- I have a job, thank you and am gainfully employed.

And -- sorry to burst your bubble of superiority -- but I actually do have gay and lesbian friends, some of very long standing. I did not say "best friends", which I think can be a facile term. All my friends are not gay, but I do work in a profession which has a lot of gay people in it. I assure that none of these individuals see me as a bigot OR a homophobe, or I would not be eating dinner in their homes or baby sitting their children.

BUT, I still am opposed to gay marriage. I think that is what drives you crazy, that you can't demonize and codify a person who doesn't agree with YOU -- damn! she's not a Born Again Christian, or a Conservative, or a Right-winger and yet she DARES TO DISAGREE!

I'd like to add that your phony indignation about fiance's "daring" to wiggle their ring fingers around you is pathetic. If you are that petty and venal...well, OK, I guess I am not actually that surprised. MEEEOWWW! So you are all bent out of shape with jealousy over another woman's engagement ring (I personally could give a rat's ass what any other women has in the way of jewelry). Who exactly is stopping you from buying a ring? Who is stopping you from wearing a ring? Or wiggling it on your finger? (Are you aware that people get married all the time without jewelry being involved in the least?)

As far as dumbass preachers who have decided to stop performing weddings...all TWELVE OF THEM!...yawnnnn...who exactly cares? Not me. Probably not anyone. There are an awful lot of churches and clergy and JPs and mail-order ministers and rabbis and priests and pastors who will happily and cheerfully perform your (straight hetero) nuptials. I am not seeing any great mass of straight people unable to marry; people are getting married all the time, every day.

And (straight traditional marriage) isn't exactly "going away" or out of style. Most people (way over 90%) get married, which is more or less the way it has (sorry gals) always been and always will be, from the distant past until the end of time. Your dreams of the destruction or prevention of traditional marriage say an awful lot about why you rant so hard for gay and polygamous marriage.

For what it is worth, Orson Scott Card is a very highly respected science fiction writer ("Enders Game"), and not a fanatical fundie Mormon in my experience, but a very mainstream one.

What you can't accept is that initiatives like Prop 8, or the upcoming one in Maine, could never succeed JUST on Mormon money or influence -- Mormons are a fairly small religious group. You can only achieve great things when you have the backing of a majority of voters, of average people, and when you the combination of history and common sense on your side. It is fascinating, for example, how you guys stubbornly ignore the influence of (say) conservative Hispanic and Black voters; so much easier to bash (those kooky) Mormons! Yet it is far more likely that the Hispanic and Black vote is what put Prop 8 over the top.

One day I hope the two of you will learn that your arguments are pathetic, weak and (yes) BIGOTED when all you have got in your arsenal is calling your opponents "stupid", "fat" and "psycho".