One the first things the Nazis did in Germany and the Fascists Italy in the 30's was to outlaw labor unions. Conservatives hate unions. That is why they are attempting to blame the unions for the problem. Need I say more? I won't go so far as to call the conservatives Fascists. But only because I don't want to insult any Fascists that may log on.

Timbuktom, from Detroit, makes the perfectly valid point that this is Detroit's Katrina, a disaster no more and no less caused by natural forces and human stupidity in equal measures. (I happen to think that in New Orleans, the stupidity was in the lazy, corrupt, ineffcient local government; the Salonistas naturally blame everything from Hurricanes to sunspots on President Bush.) The difference is that billions flowed into New Orleans without so much as a question.

Then there is Walter_Map, with whom I suspect I have zero agreement on almost anything. Except insofar as I understand him, he is absolutely correct that if Congress had waved Nancy Pelosi's magic wand (she surely got her magic wand from a cetified fairy in the Tenderloin) and said, "Detroit, you shall have a Corporate Average Fleet Economy of 40 mpg," it would have been nothing but a market-losing tax on the Detroit Three, who function in a substantially differnt market than Toyota or Honda. Although Toyota and Honda are investing about a billion each in big trucks themselves. (Because... Toyota and Honda are stupid? Led by stunted white-guy executives? Perish the thought.)

Walter_Map was responding to this this idocy:

Yes Elephantman is delusional

Yes I did see Elephantman trying to lump the Dems in as enemies of Detroit for supporting CAFE standards. Those oppossed to CAFE standards were Oil Companies, CEO's of the big 3 and Republicans. So the Dems were hurting Detroit by pushing for higher gas mileage standards? Do you really think this Elephantman?

If the big 3 had been forced to make cars that got over 40 mpg where would they be today?

The Republicans and Oil companies gave us a bankrupt economy and $4.00 a gallon gas. Remember Detroit CEO's, that Oil Companies and Republicanss were on your side when it came to stopping any CAFE standards. Now that Detroit is about to go belly up because of the double whammy of people being broke and not wanting cars that get less the 20 mpg they want some help to climb out of a hole.

Well guess who is standing at the top of the hole kicking you in the face to ensure you don't get out of it?

Oh and on a side note a lot of economic probles our businesses face are because of a lack of nationalized health care. For our businesses to be competitive in any way we need to cut out the HMO's and Health Services companies that leech about 30% from every health care dollar while providing nothing and go to single payer healthcare.

-- rdmcabee

Lord have mercy, you are one stupid fool. Detroit hasn't lost money because it built platforms like the Yukon/Tahoe, or the Explorer, or the F-150. Detroit isn't bankrupt becuase it builds Corvettes, or Mustangs, or because Chrysler builds the 300. (Barack Obama had a nice 300, I see on ebay. That was before he, wisely, got himself a dandy Ford Hybrid Escape.) Those platforms all make money. I think I should repeat that for rdmcbee, don't you? THOSE PRODUCTS ARE ALL PROFITABLE, YOU DUMASS! Detroit's loss leaders are the products, exclusively in North America (Ford and GM make money in Europe, Latin Amercia and Asia) for which the cutthroat competition with the Japanese transplants, on those vehicles mandated by CAFE, costs them more than it is worth.

How many plants has Japan permitted American automakers to open in their country? Meanwhile more than 60 percent of Japanese cars are sold in the United States.

If the Big Three are permitted to fail, even Toyota and Honda say the unintended consequence will be to take out the supply base they depend on, shutting down factories that make auto parts they use.

U.S. labor costs are $800 per vehicle more than Japanese ones but the typical U.S. vehicle sells for $2500 less than a comparable Japanese one.

I am proud to drive my 10-year-old Pontiac which still gets more than 30 mpg. I only hope that when it finally needs to be replaced, there will still be American cars to buy.

Do you know who hates unions and loves foreign cars?

U.S. auto buyers . . . were this not true, there would be no need for a bailout.

Now let me get this straight. The junior senator from Tennessee, the only new Republican senator in 2006, (He is the Republican class of 06 and hence a man in a hurry or perhaps in fear of extinction)- a millionaire real estate developer, the guy who received quite a bit of cash in his only Senatorial campaign from foreign car companies somehow ended up negotiating this week's car wreck in Congress? Do I smell a whiff of Blago in all of this? Or are former real estate developers the people we really trust nowadays to get the republic's work done? Oh, this is so delicious!

Seriously though, can anyone (with a modicum of respectability) explain how the wages of union car workers in Detroit differ from non-union car workers, say, in Tennessee? What do the UAW benefits cost per worker? Do the non-union workers get any benefits? Would we as innocent bystanders, but fellow human beings, want the non-union benefits versus the union benefits?

Also, if you added up the money in tax incentives, or other state-sponsored gifts to the foreign car companies for their setting up in places like Tennessee, what have Tennessee taxpayers already paid to underwrite these cheaper jobs?

Last, do the Southern senators have no sense of shame? Sure the U.S. car companies have been overly enthusiastic in meeting the weird car needs of American customers. (This mean gas guzzlers, cool trucks with no mileagel) But hey, we are in the depressing recession already. Do we really need to have

millions of more jobs lost, workers furloughed RIGHT NOW? What's wrong with a short-term fix?