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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
Makes one wonder what he'd have to do in order to be fired from his corrections job, let alone prosecuted, doesn't it?
-- Confucius Always Say
He just didn't get caught until after Gulf War I. I have a brother who served time, and I am a military historian. Some prison guards act like this without any PTSD. And most PTSD victims do NOT pull this kind of stuff. You can't blame PTSD for this. He was a sociopath long before he got to Abu Ghraib. He was facilitated by the Bush administration's deliberate smearing of the bright line rules of command and control. The Bush administration deliberately set up ambiguous command and control situations because they did not care. Had those pictures never leaked out, that psycho would be back at a civilian prison torturing civilians.
I think he is where he deserves to be. He should have been in prison in W. Virginia, and the fact that he was free IS a big question. I think Lyndie Engkund et al should still be in prison AND that his civilian and military commanders should have been punished. That said, I want no clemency for him. He clearly enjoyed his sadism, and I want him to caution others to not push these borders.
Bush will pre-emptively pardon everyone from Gonzales on down involved in torture. I know this, everyone involved with the military knows this. Obama will not even have the opportunity to decide about investigation. We also know that there are many ways to obey orders, and many ways to "obey" orders. One can creatively ignore and bend orders at will.
Bush is culpable for creating this situation, for his illegal insistence that torture is acceptable, and for his cashiering of anyone who challenged that view. He will get away with it because half of the US public has the ethics and knowledge of an alley cat. That does not mean we let Graner go. Graner went far beyond even what the grinning idiots at the AG's wanted.
I am reminded of the guy who stood by while his buddy molested and killed that little girl in Vegas, and got off scot free. That's not justice. Graner is like that guy. He is getting what he deserves.
Anyone who thinks solitary is equivalent to what Granier delighted in doing needs to re-think that. Equating solitary with actual pain is a trivialization, an exercise in esoterica by the comfortable activist. If his people had simply fragged his tail, it would have been too good for him. He deserves time to let his self-pity become self-loathing.
This thread shows me that many people are disconnected from the US prison system here. If you had a relative in prison, you would have less sympathy for this man. There are way too many of them in the system, and they get away with it far too often. Granier just got caught. The question should be "How many get away with this without getting caught... in the US and worldwide"?
How can Graner, or anyone else for that matter, be treated so inhumanely? If he was found guilty because HE tortured, aren't his current guards also guilty because THEY torture?
We, as Americans, can never expect to restore even a modicum of respect from the rest of the world until we demonstrate our complete repudiation of torture by trying and punishing all who were involved. This would include Bush, Cheney, and all their thugs who ordered and supported the torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, as well as other dark holes not yet reported. We cannot allow them to go scot free just because it might look as though one party is simply trying to hurt the other party.
Did we learn nothing from Nuremburg?
As far as I'm concerned I feel no Sympathy for Charles Graner. He should serve out his term.
I know prison guards and prisoners. Most of the prisoners served solitary. Yes for mostly petty infractions. Lights 24/7, time alone for physical attivity, limited reading material, blah blah. It happens.
The guards I know say you wouldn't believe what the inmates try to get away with and some do. The guards also say you always have to follow the laws and rules of the country and prisons. They don't want to serve time with the prisoners. They have to defend themselves, yes. But do it right.
Charles Graner is where he should be. I think others should be serving as well no matter what position they hold in the admistration. The others that got out after serving time,they plea barganed.
I have sympathy for his family. I know the pain a family member feels when it's one of yours. Ouch. They [the prisoners]don't think of who it hurts. The sacrifice the family goes through so the prisoners feel better. I know parents that say their child is not a criminal, No matter what they have done. I can see how his parents would feel the treatment CG is getting is unfair. The infractions seems minor to us. But, they are not free. It's prison.
I am late in getting to this so I doubt you'll see this, but I still feel the need to say that you are the only truly honest person in this whole discussion. Nobody knows until they are in that situation what they would do. Nobody. Hope for the best, but being human, you probably won't make it.
Indeed, the soldiers in Iraq in 2003 were convinced that Saddam and Iraqis were responsible for the attacks of 9/11. That's what they were told and they believed it. Hell, most of America believed it (many still do). Just as many of the posters here feel Graner deserves everything he is getting, those soldiers believed the Iraqis were getting everything they deserved. Sorry, but with an attitude like that you who posted that are no better than Graner.
Having said that, Graner does not deserve to be tortured - which is what is happening to him in American prisons on American soil, though he does deserve to be punished. It is utterly despicable that he is alone in his punishment.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
