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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
They're going to get away with it.
It is not too late. Impeach him for this, and he can't pardon anyone. But, I frankly do not think that it matters much.
People will not forgive and will not forget and a presidential pardon will not stop this process. Indeed, its biggest effect will likely be to accelerate the process of indicting and trying the criminals abroad. These people will face justice and this will haunt them until their dying day.
As I understand it, the President has unfettered authority to pardon anyone he wishes. However, there is one person he cannot pardon - himself.
While he may issue a blanket pardon for a large category of people, he will actually make it easier for a prosecutor in the future to bring charges against him. With no further fear of their own prosecution, the witnesses from his administration will be required to cooperate with various subpoenas for their information.
So, we probably would not be able to get accountability for most of the people who should be held accountable. But the person who is ultimately responsible still can be.
Even if Bush issues pardons, they would apply only to US criminal proceedings. The guilty parties, which could include Bush and Cheney, could still be prosecuted by the International Court of Justice in Den Haag. An investigation in the United States to determine which crimes, if any, were committed and who committed them could aid the work of this court. A finding of guilt would in practice require the offender, even one who had been pardoned by Bush, to refrain from travel outside the United States, (or, at minimum, to avoid certain countries where (s)he would more likely be detained). This could effectively limit the career of such a person.
One other poster noted that Bush cannot pardon himself. That is true. Also, there are violations of international laws and laws of other countries. It is still possible that Bush et al. may be extradited to other countries for trial.
I wonder if that poor excuse for a human being plans on living in the United States?
... that Washington has finally caught up with what I've been saying for many months. If Bush does not grant pardons, it will probably mean that some kind of deal has been struck -- and the most likely deal is probably one under which immunity power will be liberally used to effect almost the same result as a pardon, but with some reliable third party -- a special prosecutor maybe, willing to accommodate the interests of both sides -- shouldering the responsibililty.
As I have been saying for way over a year, the only real hope of bringing these guys to justice is prosecutions in Europe or elsewhere. Obama could publicly offer to assist in every way possible -- if he thought it were worth the political cost of giving ammunition to the xenophobes.
Hang em all, we'll work out the details later
Unfortunately, Bush was President, he cannot go to jail out of respect for the office. It is a tragedy that both our President and Vice President were war criminals. I do not think they will be welcomed in too many places around the world.
On the other hand, Karl Rove needs to go to jail NOW, Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200. If I were Karl, I would not travel without a posse around me. I could see him getting snatched off the street in a white van with tinted windows and whisked away to some undisclosed location. Disappeared so to speak. Poetic justice?
It is ironic that Rudy Giuliani spent so much time and energy going after organized crime families in NY, yet was working with the largest organized crime group the world has ever seen. All the money those Mafia families accumulated pale compared to what this administration and associates has run off with.
Where is the justice in reconciliation for the victims? How in the hell do any of us speak for the victims? No one has a right to tally up a victims losses but victims themselves.
I want to see a thorough investigation and prosecutions. I want to see those responsible punished. I don't even care if some significant Democrats get caught in that net.
Will Obama do this? I doubt it. He is too eager to forgive. Like most religious people he arrogantly assumes that he has some right to forgive rather than the victims. He preempts the victims' rights. It is the perogative of the victim only to forgive. Obama is too bipartisan. He is to conciliatory. He owes too many people his victory.
Once he reneged on his promise to filibuster any telecom immunity and, instead, turned around and voted for it, I lost all expectation that he was a true man of constitutional principle.
Am I glad he won? Of course. I have to be when one considers the alternative. I hope progressive issues that I care about, such as health care, will make progress under his administration. However, I have no hopeful illusions that he will put constitution before party or even political expediency.
Has he signaled the cut of his jib by being so willing to forgive Lieberman? I think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but pardons apply only inside the USA. War criminals can, and perhaps should, be tried internationally, at the Hague.
I can't imagine that our newly elected officials, who believe that war crimes were committed, could simply ignore such a thing. To heal these wounds to our very fabric, this country needs to see those responsible for American war crimes brought to justice. We imprison more citizens than any country on the planet, yet our representatives would let known war criminals just get away with their crimes?
For the love of God & justice, I hope not.
I would think that a Presidential pardon would only be valid in the US.
There some Europeans who want to see US officials held liable for violating the Geneva convention. I don't know if there is sufficient outrage but, if they are serious, then a US investigation may provide evidence for such an action.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
