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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
@setme!
I think the lack of true discussion in this thread is mostly due to reality setting in...maybe its getting to the point there's really not a whole lot to fuss about.
And the very numbers you posted virtually remove the necessity for any intelligent discussion. It just is what it is.
I compared the major Progressive candidates...Clinton, Obama and Edwards. Based on their records, positions and plans for the future, I chose Hillary Clinton to support. I simply like the entire package that is Hillary Clinton and can see her as an effective, smart and articulate President. That doesn't demean the other candidates; it simply means that I like her best.
I note that Obama is winning more than Hillary right now. That having been said, I probably will not vote for Obama in the general election should he be the Democratic nominee. Here's why:
First, I don't believe that Barack Obama is prepared to be an effective President from day one. I just don't think he has the total life-experience, political savvy and maturity to handle the incredibly complex job of President. You can bet that this will be the Republican main line of contrast. Count on it!
Secondly, though, it seems to me that the Obama supporters are, for the most part, nasty, rude, arrogant and dismissive of the other candidate(s), stooping to diss Hillary with more venom than many/most Republicans do. "Clinton cabal", "nasty Clintons" and other invective from the Obamists is common in their posts.
May I remind you that the Obamists will need the approximately 48% of voters ( so far) who did NOT choose Obama in the primaries and/or caucuses to win the general election against the Republicans? If they think that Obama can win against an energized Republican party plus Democrats who will either not vote for Obama or will simply sit this one out, they're self-delusional.
Unfortunately, when I consider Obama's lack of overall qualifications plus the vehemence of his supporters, I hope that Obama loses this year. If so, we can field a much better and more able group of Progressive candidates in 2012.
Hoping that a Republican will win? That's how much the Obamists have turned me...and, many of my Progressive colleagues...off.
I think Obama should choose GWB as a runing mate: they are both
"uniters" which want to break with the "old divisions" and work
accross the aisle. Of course BO will be able to find a compromise
that pleases his VP and the reps so that it can be passed.
BO is the smartest politician I have seen in many many years.
And he is a politician indeed. He beats Bill Clinton and Tony Blair by far in the art of triangulization. We'll have a united country alright but forget about Democratic values: for those you have to fight and this is something in which BO certainly does not believe in.
Great story & excellent writing! You're capturing history being made quite eloquently, and it was much fun being a part of it all for a few hours at the Dane.
Cheers, N.
Secondly, though, it seems to me that the Obama supporters are, for the most part, nasty, rude, arrogant and dismissive of the other candidate(s), stooping to diss Hillary with more venom than many/most Republicans do. "Clinton cabal", "nasty Clintons" and other invective from the Obamists is common in their posts.
See this? It's the World's Smallest Violin.
Jesus, do you really think that dog is gonna hunt any more? The effing victim card? On these threads Obama has been quite literally compared to Jim Jones, Hitler, and Caligula. We have been called idiots, lemmings, Latte Liberals, sexist pigs, dumb hicks, racist blacks, etc. And like an insane person, you people keep trying the same tactic expecting a different result. Keep doubling down....it just. might. work!
Face it, you and your Rovian Scumbag candidate are politically dead. Why don't you get yourself buried?
Does Cindy McCain look like an alien or a ghoul? Seriously, she has no irises. Is she his third or fourth wife? Clinton just does not get it. Her record speaks for itself both personally and in the senate. The only way she is able to win now is through election fraud. How great it will be to have a brilliant president who sixty percent of the nation seems to love. Its great to see the Badger State rise again.
Ana wrote:
"Unfortunately, when I consider Obama's lack of overall qualifications plus the vehemence of his supporters, I hope that Obama loses this year. If so, we can field a much better and more able group of Progressive candidates in 2012."
Ana, what in the world do Obama's supporters and their "vehemence" have to do with electing a "better" candidate? Please make that connection. As for qualifications of HRC, please prove that she will be able to *effect* the big changes she has touted.
As far as I can see, Barack is being challenged in his party by a cadidate who has proved to be light on big changes despite her long resume in D.C.. On the other side is a respected dinosaur who will lose unless a bomb hits LAX. He simply has no plans to reform our economy or anything else. Good luck with that McCain!
Ana also wrote:
"Hoping that a Republican will win? That's how much the Obamists have turned me...and, many of my Progressive colleagues...off."
Bitter much? You appear angry that Hillary has lost, not at Barack's ability to win. And in case you have missed it, he was been winning across virtually ALL demographic categories. I guess your allegedly progressive colleagues must be similar to that miniscule demographic that Hillary won over in Hawii. In case you have also failed to notice the numbers out of Wisconsin, Barack won't need you to beat McCain in the GE.
Honestly, the vitriol that has been targeted at Obama supporters--that we are dreamers on cloud nine, supposedly; the insults about our intelligence; the mockery of the votes in supposedly lesser or unimportant states; the overall specious arguments about gender; the specious and insulting arguments about Obama's voting demographic, that they can get to vote because they are privileged and can take time out, which is patently untrue; many, if not most of us, juggle careers, excruciating long working hours, raise children, like all other Americans--have all have been indicative of how Obama supporters have been demonized and dehumanized.
Furthermore, Obama's appeal has been reduced to a mere fad. I am appalled by the lack of civility from the Clinton supporters. What is interesting about Clinton supporters is the facade of civility they project (yes, I am generalizing), while folding within that facade vicious barbs and nasty innuendos.
I respect your support for Clinton. You have your reasons. I don't agree with them, but I genuinely do respect them.
However, the constant attacks on Obama supporters has been going on since Iowa, and it is only recently that Obama supporters have been fighting back--possibly not with the tact we should be exercising, but one thing that is obvious in these primaries is that if one is hit, then one must hit back. If swift boating has taught us anything, it is that lies stick.
One thing that must be said about the Clinton--and I am not speaking about Clinton supporters--is the lack of civility she has demonstrated. She has consistently refused to make concession gestures, and that is so petty, it is hard not to equate that level of pettiness to that of her supporters. She wants to seat delegates from states that she agreed would not be included. She has insulted large blocks of voters by dismissing them are being irrelevant. It is hard not to take these as personal attacks, and distasteful ones at that.
What disturbs me about your post is your assertion that you will not vote for Obama regardless. Your contribution to the democratic party is rather moot at this point, so I am not even sure why I am responding to you. Maybe it is because I recognize that there have been below the belt hits from both camps of supporters, and that is unfortunate. If you want Obama to lose if he is the Democratic nominee, then that does reinforce my impression of Clinton supporters.
Look, there is a HUGE chasm between the two camps. Quite possibly at this point, we don't like each other. That's fine. But at least acknowledge that we are all being spiteful.
Also, the race is hardly over. Clinton may win the nomination. As long as she doesn't win it by seating Michigan and Florida delegates or by strong arming delegates, that is, if she wins because of popular votes and consequent delegates, then all power to her. If she doesn't, she can still use her 35 years of experience and turn that into 75 years of experience. Service to her nation doesn't depend on her becoming president.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
