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Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:00 AM

Hillary's time of troubles

As Clinton and Obama spoke to Virginia Democrats on Saturday, the crowd's response -- and returns from Nebraska, Washington and Louisiana -- showed how the tide is turning.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:15 PM

More snide snark towards the salt of the earth from Person

I guess you better hope they don't vote.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:15 PM

@Xrandadu Hutman: You Can't Handle the TRUTH about the WMD's and Colin Powell?

Look, I am stating facts and if you can't handle the truth that Colin Powell was the one who went to the UN and showed all the world the pictures of so called WMD's, the trucks carrying the so called WMD's, the warehouses the so called WMD's were being stored in and the maps of where the so called WMD's were, then that is your fault.

Why are you in disagreement of Colin Powell's role in this war?

I guess it is easier that Obama and his supporters put all of the blame on Hillary.

Yes, it is so much easier to always blame someone else.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:16 PM

@JackSparx

Yes, but Hillary is not related by blood to Bill--even though they ARE from Arkansas!

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:17 PM

Hillary's time of troubles

As Obama keeps winning in caucuses all over America and as pundits and political experts tell us to wait for Texas and Ohio, I wonder if Democrats are experiencing a Rudy phenomenon on the left. In politics, first there is money, then momentum, then victories, and then--suddenly it may be too late. Texas is one of the few states where the economy is doing very well. It also one of the states where Latinos are much more integrated into the state (as George Bush the ex-governor of the state told us), and they do not experience some of the problems found in other border states. As a result,they may be more receptive to Obama's message. Similarly, Ohio has a huge Afro-American population which will vote in large numbers for him. Obama will be marching into both these states with a lot of momentum and a lot of wins. I think it is a big mistake to assume that these are automatic Hillary wins. If Hillary has a firewall, it's more likely to be Pennsylvania, and by then it may be too late.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:21 PM

Cythera on Iraq...

Cythera: "I'll give you an example, merely an anecdote. My aunt and uncle totally supported the war when it began and railed against some Senate Democrats (and antiwar marchers like you and me) for opposing it. They are lifelong Democrats, think FDR is in heaven on God's right hand. They are now rabidly antiwar. But they aren't particularly concerned about who got it right at the outset--because *they* didn't. They just want out now."

Thanks for at least being civil in this post.

I think the important thing to realize is that your aunt and uncle have day jobs that don't involve being on top of all the latest information about politics, foreign policy, history, etc. So I fault people like them a lot less than I fault people who are elected to lead the nation and make decisions for which the lives and deaths of thousands of people hang in the balance.

Many people I knew back in 2003 didn't have a clue about the war either. They thought everything was hunky-dory when Bush flew in for his "Mission Accomplished" speech. They were completely dumbfounded when I told them, over dinner, that most people in Baghdad had limited access to potable water or electricity. They thought I was nuts.

But people like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were specifically elected to know very well what was going on, know all the ramifications, and make sound, leadership decisions on the matter.

There is good reason to believe that Hillary Clinton knew full well that Bush was going to go to war no matter what. How could anybody not know?

I think Hillary made a calculation that this Iraq War would go much as the first one had -- a quick, resounding victory. Then there was supposed to be a light clean-up and the installation of Chalabi as a puppet.

Clinton didn't calculate in the Bush Administration's utter incompetence, and that is much to her shame. She also didn't calculate in the difference between an air war, based mostly on bombing raids, and an occupation -- which anybody who's paid attention to history (Israel, Algeria, etc.) knows is all the difference in the world.

Then there's the matter of fixed intelligence, which Bush already had established a track record on. Sure, Clinton can say she believed the intelligence reports, but even then she should have known of the CIA maneuverings and shake-ups in the Pentagon when Donald Rumsfeld wasn't spoon-fed the evidence he wanted in advance. (The first thing Cheney asked after 9/11 is -- how can we tie this to Saddam?)

When it comes down to Obama vs. Clinton, I think Iraq should be an even huger issue than it is.

I totally agree with Obama's argument that we're better off having president who's been on the right side of the argument all along. You can be sure that in a debate, McCain would consistently focus on Hillary's Iraq vote to take all the air out of whatever arguments she makes against McCain's side.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:23 PM

@politicod

Uh, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Latinos. More integrated? Don't experience problems? Only integrated, calm Latinos support Obama? I'm confused.

By the way, the population of Ohio is 12% African-American. That is not exactly "huge" demographically speaking. But Obama will undoubtedly win them at least 3:1.

Also, Ohio's per-capita income is 25th in the nation and falling. The economy will be far and away the biggest issue there. Obama will need to convince blue-collar Dems to vote for him. They won't do so because Salon runs front-page articles raving about his momentum.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:25 PM

No Tide Is Turning

The only thing turning is the calendar while the Media stays consistent. The Democratic race has generally broken down into two camps. The young and elite who in the past have rallied around George McGovern, Gary Hart and Bill Bradley have consistently supported Obama and he has combined them with huge support among African-Americans.

Clinton has combined support from women, working class Democrats and other ethnic groups. With some groups acting as swing voters and no group being consistent always.

Thus caucus states in which ethusiams and more flexible work schedules favor Obama and primary states with large numbers of Black Democrats also support Obama. However with the end of the causes and also the end of Southern primaries it is not clear that Obama will do as well. The coming primaries will be in states with large working class populations and large minority groups who are not African-American. only afte all these have occurred will we really know if anything has turned.

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