Letters to the Editor
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@had_enough
OK, I'll go along with that as long as we're talking about Science and not Mathematics. The pi example is clearly about measuring an inconsequential final value. Hell, even if pi did terminate it wouldn't any difference to anyone except mathematicians. (And for them it would be an incredible discovery of amazing proportions!)
My example for the proof of incompleteness addresses the issue of literally knowing that it cannot be shown that 2 + 2 = 4, but going ahead and doing science with that judgement. In science that's fine, in mathematics (if you're working at that level) it would be a huge face plant to state that as given.
In either case, mostly I just want folks to stop trying to get other folks to agree with them when the subjects under discussion are essentially incomensurable. If the Creation Musem exists and thrives that might be useful data about belief, if further evidence of the derivation of current life forms from olders ones is established that might provide the basis for useful beliefs about data.
At heart, I get along better with Gould than with Dawkins.
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Here I'll save the trouble
Winnow down the noise and dross and what you're left with is "Faith is ignorant and we are smart." Everything else is college sophomore filler.
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Heh...
>"Who did Adam and Eve's kids marry?" <
I have always wondered about that, and have never gotten a satisfactory answer.
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Huh?
>"We're not sure what kind of fruit it was, but we do know it wasn't an apple," says Looy,<
If they regard the Bible as gospel, how do they know it wasn't?
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The increasing audacity of the Christian Right
Even a decade or so ago, it would have been unheard of for a significant portion of Christianity to publicly espouse anti-Darwinist sentiments. Even Pope John Paul II, not exactly the most open-minded fellow in history, once stood up in the pulpit and announced that evolution and God were perfectly compatible ideas.
Now we're looking at a huge chunk of America who want Creationism to replace Darwinism in our schools: not significantly mentioned, not taught side-by-side, but simply presented as the truth. The polling shows that this isn't a fringe movement; it's a legitimate trend gathering tremendous steam. The more Conservative Christians can bolster their ranks, the more fanatical the ideals they can proffer.
One wonders how long it will be before they start making significant inroads against things like interracial marriage. I'm being completely serious here; what we're seeing so far is only what they currently feel comfortable pursuing in a public arena. The audacity of their private agenda likely knows no bounds.
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The Godel problem
@Richard Ray
I understand the distinction you are trying to make re:science and mathematics. However, ever since the days of Kurt Godel and his incompleteness theorem, we can't even be of math entirely.
I concur with had_enough in this instance, that there is a certain threshold at which scientific (and mathematical) knowledge becomes useful, regardless of its infallibility. The effects of gravity are measurable, whether or not we know what causes it. Penicillin kills diseases, whether or not we map its genome. And so forth. This is what gives people grounded in science the (to me, justified) arrogance in speaking of these matters as trumping "theorems" of faith.
Sorry if this sounded combative or condescending, it was not my intent. Like you, I'm more at home with Gould than with Dawkins. I'm just more reticent to give ground in the debate with the faith-based crowd, because allowing their whole-cloth fantasy to stand on equal footing with laboriously produced scientific theories is a non-starter. I'd rather place my "faith" in a system of observation which contains a degree of errancy, than in a system that promises inerrancy at the cost of reality.
@RealName
If the discussion is over your head, feel free to withdraw from it. But don't take it on yourself to try to codify it into some dumbed-down nugget for others. Many people here are actually able of thinking at an adult level for sustained periods of time without wanting to go hit a rock with a stick.
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Creation Nonsense
It blows my mind that people smart enough to create this techno display are dumb enough to believe that Genesis was dictated by God and every word is literally true. I fear for a society in which such a large percentage of the population believe in creationism.
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even less trouble
Winnow down the noise and dross and what you're left with is "Faith is ignorant and we are smart." Everything else is college sophomore filler.
"I'm smarter than all the other posters on Salon. As usual."
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Their Small Limited God
Since I first realized that fundamentalists actually existed among us in our modern western culture, I've always been amazed how small they make the God they glorify.
They have God whipping up the whole universe in six 24-hour days (including the means by which days are determined) and then takes a breather. He sure was in a rush for an immortal being. Wouldn't a God that invented the cause & effect process that was able to slowly create the universe in all its amazingly intricate detail over "millions of years" and had the infinite patience to observe its progress be a far more impressive being? And couldn't a man of over 2000 years ago, who was inexplicably invited to watch a reply of the whole thing be forgiven if, in his limited knowledge of mathematics reported the whole thing as if he saw it in real time?
I suppose God created the false trail for all who engage in a rational examination of his creation for his own amusement. Which is to ask if the whole scientific process is just his big practical joke?
While we are in the neighborhood, doesn't the whole Adam & Eve story seem like one big Gotcha! senario? Apparently, their God so petty that he decided conducted a complete redo of his creation with the addition of carnivorous animal, dangerous plants, disease and all kinds of other unpleasantries just because his two children let curiosity get the best of them.
I could go on and on about how they've made God in their image with all kinds of human vices, but you get the idea. It seems the more you know God, the more he is...surprise! just like you!
Perhaps its modesty, but I'm betting on God being very little like me.