Letters to the Editor
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David Sugarman's rationalizations
Sugarman: "if you really believe that the U.S. government is in the grip of a zionist conspiracy, when israel has 1/50th the population and 1/100th the GDP and 1.7% of the U.S. population (70% vote democratic), then you are really out of touch with reality."
AIPAC isn't a conspiracy, it is an overt and well-organized public organization that is the #2 most powerful lobbying group in the U.S. The population size of Israel is immaterial to the subject at hand.
"polls in israel consistently support the idea of getting rid of the West Bank. that byzantine politics and strong willed settlers and recalcitrant palestinians made this impossible does not alter this fact."
Which polls? From the articles I read in Haaretz and elsewhere, it seems more like a 50-50 (or 60-40) split. You failed to mention that Israeli leftists have been politically marginalized for the last decade or more, and likely to remain that way after the next election.
"the *entire* mideast has contributed to the palestinian plight."
This is Israeli propaganda and total bullshit, and you know it. This is a standard Israeli blame-reversal line that fails as a real argument. How did Yemen, for example, or Quatar, contribute to the Palestinian plight? What influence does Kuwait have over how Israel treats Palestinians in the occupied territories? What about the Palestinian land and a two-state solution? What about the human right to self-determination?
"there's no "moral" claim for *any* kind of a state. it only exists because people fight for it. that is true for *any* state, even europe, though that goes way back. canada and the U.S. and South America were not "given" they were "taken". sorry. that is it. do a thought experiment."
This is another bogus stock argument used to deny Israeli responsibility for any and all land-grab behaviors. You're essentially using the 18th-century actions of other countries to excuse the 21st-century actions of Israel. Might as well use the same argument to justify slavery. And I might also add that there is indeed a moral claim for a state when established international agreements and borders are already in place. The only reason Israel hasn't been forced to give back the land it has stolen is because it has convinced the U.S. to override all corrective efforts by international bodies.
"if the jews were moslem, would there have been any uproar at all?"
If this rhetorical question had a clear point, would you bother making it? Or would it be too ridiculous to state directly?
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i think i'll take martin luther king's word on this
Dr. Martin Luther King, at a 1968 speech at Harvard, "You declare that you do not hate Jews, you are merely anti-Zionist. And I say, let the truth ring forth from high on the mountain tops.When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews." but hell, no one said you have to *like* jews. that's no constitutional requirement. in fact, as an american you can lobby our government to join hamas in the "one-state solution" (as advocated by tony judt). of course there'd be a fight. but nasrallah thinks that with the arab 4.7% increase in population, death for death is a good deal. but without the jews to blame for everything bad, how long would europe support the palestinians? this is how i see it. you want the jews to beg on their knees for existence. we did it that way and it didn't work out. so we are trying another. don't like it? tough.
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How many of their children are in uniform?
My son is in the service and heading for the Gulf this spring. I believe his ship will likely be used as bait to draw us into a war with Iran.
How many of those self-satisfied people sitting in that conference center have children or family that might die if we go to war with Iran? I would guess not many. Yet they will happily send others off to die, just so they can keep living this militarist utopian fantasy about countries(US, Israel) that lost their moral bearings and their strength many years ago.
Don't let anyone lie to you, Israel got beat in Lebanon. We are getting beat in Iraq. Many people in America are starting to blame Israel and its lobbies for these debacles. At the end of the day the American people could easily turn on Israel. Then Israel would have no one...except this crazed group of people.
Its ironic, these Israeli/Americans think they supporting both countries, in fact they are destroying them.
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I love how the Israel Lobby
Makes bedfellows of Salon readers and Buchanan followers.
Of course, count me in. Its about time Israel stood up on its own and wiped its own ass. We have China and the rest of the world to worry about. If the members of a particular Abrahamic religion choose to keep asking for trouble in the middle-East, let them reap the consequences.
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i agree, Buckaroobanzai
i think we are using it as bait. and also that israel and the U.S. lost. i think, for what it's worth, that the U.S. should immediately open up negotiations with iran, we have slick diplomats too and could offer up some deal to protect iran from nuclear weapons from pakistan or israel or china or india. i think, if not, we can only say we are going to war against a first use - what about a terrorist placed bomb? ugh! things get sticky! it's *really* hard to have hope. maybe sense will prevail and khalid mohammad types won't get their hands on a bomb. so far only two bombs have ever been used, but they are really scary. i really can't understand the mentality that would use them, but since 9/11 (and for me, the holocaust) you have to admit that such people do exist.
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"anti-Semitism" = defense tactic #239
I expect the charges of anti-semitism will be forthcoming against anybody who criticizes AIPAC or Israel.
To everybody reading: Take "anti-semitism" with a grain of salt. How many people, other than neo-nazis, assorted Middle Easterns, and Borat, are really anti-semitic?
The word "Semite" comes from somebody named Shem in the Old Testament. Historically a semite could just as easily be an Arab as a Jew. The way the term "anti-semitic" is used is actually rather distorted.
I am critical of AIPAC and Israel, but I am not an anti-Semite. For most of my youth I didn't really know what Jewish was, and when I learned more about the religion and culture, I didn't find it any worse than any other religion. I grew up watching PBS shows like "3-2-1 Contact" which had an episode where a glasses-wearing kid is attacked by racist bullies and he blows into an old horn to call for help, which relates to a Jewish tradition. I was on his side. I learned about the Golem, a Jewish monster that rises up from the earth to exact revenge against those who hurt Jews, and is depicted in very early silent films. I read as the Thing/Rock from Fantastic Four declared his Judaism and thought, "That's cool," though I wondered how he'd get a yarmulke on that craggy head. I have seen perhaps every film ever made by Woody Allen, Mel Brooks, and Albert Brooks, as well as most episodes of "Seinfeld." I think Carrie Fisher and Natalie Portman are hot. I find Barbra Streisand tolerable and klezmer music moreso. I like rye bread and bagels and matzoh ball soup (but not gefilte fish). I think Moses sounds like a cool guy. I dated a Jewish gal who was very sexual although she calmly informed me that she would never marry me because I'm not Jewish and she'd want her children to be raised fully Jewish. I visited a number of synagogues in Europe and found them interesting even though I was surprised women weren't allowed into some of them. I like Steven Spielberg movies quite a bit. I've considered sitting through "Shoah," sat through "Marathon Man" twice, and unfortunately did sit through "The Boys From Brazil." (It's a sad fact but so much of people's idea and understanding of Jewishness comes from movies.)
I am glad Israel exists and it seems like it was a good plan that got corrupted somehow. I wish Hamas, Hizbollah and other groups would become peaceful and tone down their rhetoric so they were merely arguing for Israel to restore the 1967 Palestinian borders. I think Israel should be the mature adults and do the right thing no matter what the childish Arabs surrounding them do. Israel should stop claiming, "They made us do it!" and just do the right thing, as an adult would. Give back land that others have a legitimate claim to, suck it up and take a loss, absorb it, deal with it, and attain peace. Stop playing political games, maneuvering, manipulating, hedging, game-theorizing, bait-switching, and otherwise sleight-of-handing a serious global political problem. That Israel keeps refusing to do this is why people criticize it, not because they selectively hate only people who don't eat pork.