Sure, bite and gouge, but only to get him to release his grip. Then run. Run like a rabbit. There are men who will carve up a woman. Drag her into a ditch and cut off her nose. Her breasts. Her hands. I feel I'm edging into pornographic violence here, but what the police tell reporters is often kindly vague. There are victims who don't dare show what remains of their faces and so the rest of us can walk about town and believe that there aren't real monsters in the world.

"vainglorious conceit"

If I'm so ugly, and aren't all women who complain that pervs bug them, then why do pervs bug me? I'm so ugly, then leave me the hell alone on the subway.

"vainglorious"?

I don't disagree.

The best advice I was ever told is don't get in the car.

Even if they have a gun, if they are willing to shoot you for not getting in the car, they are going to kill you anyway, and probably in a worse way. Run, scream, even risk being shot, but DO NOT GET IN THE CAR.

Another good self defense trick? If they are armed and want your purse, throw it away from you, let them go after it and RUN. If they don't want it, you have different issues.

Ashepe--In the U.S., publishing/selling photos of someone without permission, when it actually IS contested by the subject in question, is handled by the civil and not the criminal courts. If my boss took a photo of a fully-clothed woman walking down the street (with no underwear visible), displayed it in the gallery for sale, and did not get her permission to profit off her image, she could come back and sue him, but not file criminal charges.

As for criminal charges specifically against those taking upskirt photos, I think that it should fall under the same category as a peeping tom taking pictures through someone's bedroom window (which peeping toms have been doing since cameras became portable and affordable). There ARE criminal laws against that, and have been for a long time. The only reason peeping toms weren't taking upskirt shots in the 40s and 50s was because unlike a cell phone camera, the Kodak Brownie Box was kind of obvious and hard to conceal. The existing peeping tom laws need to be re-written to reflect the current technology.

AnnieW--Yes, that was an intentional pun.

I've been mugged in Houston three times. Those were confrontations brought outta the blue to me by muggers with guns and knives, and when you're in THAT kind of situation, you very humbly bargain for your life.

you are what you select.

You have a link, but I have expertise. As a victim advocate, I used to schedule experts to speak on crime. I also did lots of research of sources myself on sex crimes and gave speeches and have written on the same. I suggest that you read Nicolas Groth on sexual offenders if you want to understand them better.

There is a pattern of escalation over time. The men start out doing easier less risky crimes with less severe penalties.

Look at it this way.

1. Most rapists have committed over sex crimes previous to beginning to rape. (That is almost universally true.)

2. All upskirters are rapists or potential rapists. Not even remotely true. Many will never "progress" beyond peeping or upskirting.

I regard peeping as much more serious than upskirting. Peepers are usually looking into people's house -- the place where people feel most safe -- so they have not only transgressed upon the person but upon territory.

As a victim advocate, we worked with the police. The police (they do know a thing or two) will tell you that peeping often leads to burglary. If you want to know the crime that violently (not date rape) dangerous rapists will most often escalate to before committing rape itself, it is burglary. Once they cross that THRESHOLD (or window sill) they feel a great sense of power. It is a mistake to think of burglary as only a property crime. The burglar can get off on the sense of power from transgressing people's home territory. Ones who are likely to become rapists will steal underwear or ejaculate (sometimes defecate) on a bed. This is all rehearsal for when they step up to rape.

I just don't think, as evidenced by some of the posts on this board (I'm talking about you Mr.E and Brightstar despite all of the good sense you've evidenced since your resurrection) that men can really understand what it's like to be a woman walking down the street of a big city.

Since before I hit puberty (12 years old) grown men have either groped me on the street and/or the bus, catcalled me from their cars, or put their hands on me in an aggressive manner because I didn't respond to their advances.

It is exhausting and when I'm in city mode, I am a complete and utter bitch; a few male bad apples has pretty much spoiled the bunch for me when it comes to actually responding to guys who come up to me on the street or in clubs.

And I don't dress like a hooker. No short skirts (god forbid) though I prefer to wear skirts for all of the reasons AKA outlined. Wearing pants, actually, is worse because all of the times I've had my ass grabbed it's because I'm wearing a pair of jeans. Not tight jeans, so thats not the reason, but jeans do show off my womanly trunk, in which there is a fair amount of junk. Skirts are actually more modest (for me) than pants, and now I have to worry about some perv looking at my panties.

The worst groping experience I ever had, I was wearing velvet pants. They looked good, but that doesn't mean I want a 6'5" Australian giant to grab me by my ass when I'm walking by and force me to talk to him because I didn't respond to his hand gestures across the pub. (In that situation, I chose not to fight back physically because, umm, he was a giant. At least a foot taller than me and outweighed me by a hundred pounds and incredibly drunk at that. And I was in Australia, out with a bunch of American girls who wouldn't be much help in a fight.)

So yeah, what ya'll don't understand is that it doesn't matter what we wear. If you are a woman, between a certain age, and aren't deformed, (and even if you are) you have been on the receiving end of some sort of street harassment, nasty comments, up and to including sexual harrassment and physical intimidation. Look, I don't care if a guy looks at me. Looking is fine, but seriously, women have to put up with so much crap just walking around that it would be nice if they didn't have to worry that their granny panties were going to be on some pervy website. It may not seem like nothing to you, but it is to us.