Letters to the Editor
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Just a giant load of crap
Someone needed to say it, without all of the falderal.
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thought this was worth repeating....
...between altered states of consciousness being "real" versus "just a brain state". A brain state, any brain state, is just as real as a house, it is just that one experiences a brain state directly while a house indirectly, via a brain state, i.e. the image of the house.
But this has nothing to do with Al Gore.
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wilber
The fact that so many posters have already responded to this article so early shows what a hunger is there.
The pre-rational and trans-rational distinction is extremely useful. As Wilber says, transrational states are testable. You can put in the work to get there, and see for yourself.
The alternative to crediting their reality is to suppose that all of the many thousands who report such states, or describe the training required to attain them, are deluded fools or liars.
I would agree with Wilber that the transrational does not reject the rational, but includes it.
Another way to put what he says about ego or the small self is that the point of meditation is not so much to get rid of it as to understand it and not mistake it for all of one's being. The attempt to get rid of it is as pointless as the attempt to get rid of a crowbar by thinking it out of existence.
I ind the point-of-view (personal pronoun) description of views of the godhead useful and illuminating too.
Re quantum uncertainty: Would it not be possible to think that what we mistake as probability functions for the location of an electron, say, are instead descriptions of where whatever is more or less closely resembles our model, the electron?
As for the "existence" of god. Existence is a human concept. Need the holy conform to our concepts?
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Just a snap shot
To all,
To assume that anyone can understand the totality of Wilber's thesis based on a three page interview in Salon is silly. You all are arguing about snippets of a much bigger picture. It is akin to arguing about the colors of a quilt that you only see at dusk. If anything, one should do a little more reading about the subject before brushing it aside as meaningless woo-woo or whatever you want to call it. There is not room in this article to go into all the details that Wilber has put into his numerous books. Someone suggested that Wilber has only a glancing understanding of the subjects that he uses to generate his thesis. I would suggest to those that hold this position to actually read anything of his work to see the fallacy of this claim.
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Just a note
For being the "most important living philosopher" Wilber isn't saying anything that hasn't been said before. Yes, as he points out, if you haven't experienced it to some degree at least you probably are not aware of it, so it may be news. In fact these ideas have been around for eons. The only issue I have with what he said is this idea of "spritual evolution" from certain types of religion to more advanced stages. This would be correct describing an individual who can go through these levels, but to say that human cultures are more spiritually advanced than they were thousands of years ago is just arrogance. The fact is that civilization (state level societies, written language, division of labor etc.) although a great cultural advance has probably set us back significantly in our spiritual development.
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Some questions...
Do you have internal experience?
If not, then Wilbur's points are a giant load of crap.
If yes, can you explain scientifically why you have internal experience?
If yes, then Wilbur's points are a giant load of crap.
If not, then you aren't in much more of a position to make authoritative, scientific statements than Wilbur.
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Wilbur->Wilber
Sorry about the misspelling of your name, Ken.
BTW, it seems we are all one, eh?
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Something less than a fact
The fact is that civilization (state level societies, written language, division of labor etc.) although a great cultural advance has probably set us back significantly in our spiritual development.
Evidence, please. For example, how does one define advances or set backs in spiritual development?
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check it out
you all should really check out the brain research lady video on the web. She researches the brain and she had a stroke and could recount the entire thing. It is mind blowing with consciousness leading the way. http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/304.html
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Spiritual Neediness
I think Ken Wilber is trying to explain "consciousness" as an objective phenomenon, which can be subjected to some sort of proof, AND the "interior" reality reported by the meditators and mystics. He's trying to bring together both sides.
Hence, his criticism of "boomerite Buddhists" as self-indulgent, only I don't think he's been any more successful at it than anybody else, including the great physicists of the 20th Century. His "maps" are his attempt to provide some structure to the phenomenon because that's the best he can do-and possibly anyone at this time.
For those genuinely interested, his books are far less confusing than his conversation. He's Aristotelian in his approach, measuring and charting, and clear, but it's hard to say to what effect.
If I am a scientific materialist he presents no evidence to refute me that hasn't been seen before, and if I am a "believer" of some sort he provides little "hope" for my convictions that can't be obtained sitting on a cushion for a few days, or praying.
I think Wilber's answer is that it's both, (an objective phenomenon and an interior state) using his grids to hold it all together--but they aren't much more than a metaphor themselves. (It might not be unlike what Aquinas did in his day.)
But if someone is looking, and needs a synthesis to hold the conflicting claims together, he's got an answer, and whether or not you think it's arrogant is also based on your own needs.
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Go get a job
Right now - right this minute - someone is being tortured, someone is dying because of lack of health insurance, someone is hungry, someone is desparate because of drug abuse, trees are being bulldozed for more food, factories are converting oil into plastic to be turned into landfill etc. etc. etc.
And here we waste more time on the ultimate ME, ME, ME, ME, ME reality.
What a waste of intellect.