Letters to the Editor
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Wow, from the cluckfest going on here
you would think Katie Roiphe is the Anti Christ.
and this brings up a point, after reading over 100 letters responding to this article, I still have not found one interesting thing anyone said that truly challenged what Roiphe represents. Most either side with her or make some lame comment that she is not feminist after all.
What is so wrong, by the way, with a woman saying she should have equal rights in society AS WELL AS equal responsibilities? Isn;t this all she is saying? That women should take some responsibility for getting fall down drunk, assenting to sex, then owning up to their choice?
Or do you feminists who disagree think men should go back to treating women like irresponsible children, unable to make adult decisions or choices?
I suppose the correllary is that feminists are more than happy to keep men dangling in indecision as to whether ANY TIME is truly a good time where the consent is completely there. This is particuarly funny, because the vast majority of women both do not make the first move, expecting that this is the guy's responsibility, but then thay also piss and moan that guys are not being more forthright and making moves in the first place.
TO THOSE WHO WOULD LABEL MY ABOVE POST TROLLISH OR WOMAN HATING
or some other misbegotten insult, you know where you can go. I am making some valid points here.
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Nick Kiddle goes to a bar. Takes home two paratroopers. One is "too drunk to be reasoned with". She starts to have sex. There is a problem. She stops. Did a rape occur?
Read about Nick Kiddle
http://pandagon.net/2005/11/22/this-is-what-they-mean-by-rape-culture/
This is what they mean by “rape culture” at Pandagon
If you want more than one opinion of what happened just google her name. Lots of feminist blogs talked about her.
But she says she took two paratroopers home to have sex with. A condom fell off. She decided not to have sex. One of the paratroopers passionately pleaded with her to continue to have sex. She adamantly said no.
The paratroopers went home.
Later, she discusses this as a near rape experience.
So Broadsheet women, did Nick Kiddle have any responsibility towards what happened? She brought home and started to have sex with someone she describes as "too drunk to listen to reason." Does she bear responsibility for that?
If a man had taken a drunk woman home and had sex with her, was the woman raped? Does the man bear responsibility for that?
Rebecca Traister says yes. Amanda Marcotte says yes. Nick Kiddle says yes. Katie Roiphe says no.
So if a woman takes a drunk man home and he insists on having sex, who bears responsibility for that? Rebecca Traister says its the man. Amanda Marcotte says its the man. Nick Kiddle says its the man. Katie Roiphe says its the woman.
Who is the feminist here? Who is expressing that men and women are both rational, responsible adults?
Was Nick Kiddle almost raped?
And finally, in an exciting epilogue, read Nick Kiddle's original portrayal of what happened. But! Don't read before you answer.
http://tinyurl.com/ytnrwq
http://tinyurl.com/2zr9wz
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Emily, I answered your question, I am politely waiting for your reply
Emily,
Apparently you feel it is not male bashing when Miriele describes men as getting their scrotums in a bunch. I replied quite a while ago why I felt differently just as you asked me to.
But no response from you.
I hope you don't have your panties in a knot or your tit in a ringer over what I said. I hope you're not just otr, pms'd and being bitchy.
Was Miriel male bashing or not?
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Anonymous #9,276:
Sorry - I had to do my job for a bit there.
Do you have an actual quote for me to judge?
I don't know who Miriele is, or the context of the scotum comment.
If you can't copy & paste the exact quot, direct me to the approximarte current page on which it appears.
PS - I frequently have my panties in a knot and tits in a ringer. Personally, I don't have an issue with charged language unless it's in an environment with an obvious and important power imbalance.
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Here is where I called in this thread for Miriele to stop her male bashing
http://letters.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/07/09/katie_roiphe/permalink/3109a560f8af469db58b712f2c99518d.html
It was in response to this:
http://letters.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/07/09/katie_roiphe/permalink/d39d2a08e9eef68e17cdacb274c118a4.html
where she uses charged language and dismisses male complaints.
Truth be told, I don't mind charged language either. But apparently lots of feminists do and my point is that with the genders reversed, Miriele's language would clearly be seen as female bashing and creating a hostile environment.
Along came you at some point to say you didn't see any male bashing in this thread.... I don't know if you hadn't read the entire thread, or if it was just your position of privilege and double standards or the fact that it was male bashing that made it invisible to you.
I think all of this bashing male and female has to stop. But I also think that we shouldn't be speech or thought police either.
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Brightstar:
I have to say, a quick review of your posts has made it clear that you are one of the few obvious, indisputable "woman-haters" around here.
You generalize, assuming that all women are alike, and exhibit a pretty vitriolic bias against all females.
Just from the first few pages of your letter history:
“We men get a lot of abuse from women in this society.
I come on these boards with the same attitude BACK at women in order to elucidate the issues of how men feel they are treated by society.”
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“women treat men like GARBAGE”
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“WE JUST NO LONGER NEED ALL THE EGO AND ARROGANCE BULLSHIT FROM YOU WOMEN.”
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“…The small burden of childbearing is a small price to pay. particularly when you consider the much greater burden the average man faces merely because he is NOT capable of bearing a child, such as having to go fight wars and die, having to tolerate the bitch despite her uncontrolled psycho makeup if he wants to stay married and continue to see his kids etc.”
In addition, you say that women “can thank feminism for their sorry plight” and that “they have been trained by feminists to avoid this happiness like the plague”
But then you tells a guy you're fighting with that you “trust(s) women to make good decisions about who they date. THIS MAKES ME MORE OF A FEMINIST THEN YOU.”
All this is pretty clear "woman-bashing" by the standards being used here.
I'm sure that women in your personal life have treated you poorly, and I'm sorry about that.
But I can't really buy the argument that your fury is simply a rational response to the "male-bashing" of a feminist society to which you admit that you willingly belong.