"Discovering atheism is discovering true freedom."

How?

In response to ChristinaViolet's concern that Mars Hill church has its own MA program in counselling psych, I think she has confused the Mars Hill Graduate School in Bothell with the Mars Hills Church in Ballard that is the subject of this article. Mars Hill Grad School is a very progressive Christian institution affiliated with Brian McLaren and other "emergent" leaders who have seriously taken a lot of heat by conservatives like Driscoll for their liberal views on spirituality, theology and social issues. Driscoll now distinguishes his own view of his church as "emerging, not emergent", even though most "emergents" call themselves "emerging" anyways. Sounds like petty semantics but beneath the surface of it, the theological differences between McLaren and Driscoll are as vast as the Dalai Lama and the Pope.

As a "progressive", "emergent" Christian with a counselling psych MA from a Canadian university, there is no doubt in my mind that any MHGS grad would be as accepting, inclusive, empathic, and non-judgmental in their practice as anyone coming from a secular institution.

A few random comments about Mars Hill, and the reactions to it posted here:

1. Mark Driscoll has been accused, by "fundies" as well as liberals, of having a sharp tongue and a large ego. And I have reservations about nondemoninational churches which center on the opinions and personality of a single leader. But it's obvious from this story, and the Amazon reviews of the book from which it's excerpted, that Sandler sees anyone who believes the things which Christians have always believed as a threat. I find it easy to believe the church members who have argued in this thread that this portrayal is a smear.

2. It's irrational to criticize Christianity in general, or Mars Hill in particular, for being "exclusive." Every religious and philosophical system makes truth claims. It is fair to debate those claims; it is not fair to feign outrage because the claims are made. Every organization, fellowship, or faction, including the Democratic Party and the liberal churches aligned with it, is "inclusive" to those who agree with its core beliefs and "exclusive" to those who do not.

Defensive because Christianity teaches that you, as a non-Christian, are going to Hell? You shouldn't be -- if you're convinced this contention is false, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If you suspect it's true, you can convert.

3. In America in 2006, no husband or church can "force" a woman to quit a job, have a child, or marry someone who expects them to do either. Feminists need to accept that many women don't believe that careerism is an end, rather than a means. (Note that the woman most used as an illustration of the alleged sexism of Mars Hill has stated in this thread that her life was misrepresented.)

In addition, I'm struck by the corrosive contempt for children and parenthood expressed around this issue. Note the horror that some posters have shown because a woman left her "important" job of merchandizing trinkets at rock concerts to embrace the "menial" task of nurturing her children. Is it now the "progressive" position that women should farm the care of their children out to underpaid strangers in order to focus on serving corporate America? Which is a greater intellectual and spiritual challenge; marketing Metallica T-shirts or shaping the minds and spirits of human beings?

""Discovering atheism is discovering true freedom."

How?"

There is no divine plan. There is no eternal punishment. When things go bad, it is not god "punishing" you. When good things happen, you deserve the credit, not an imaginary god. You are responsible for your life. You make the choices, you suffer the consequences and you (and only you) bear personal accountability for it.

This life is all we get. There is no eternal beach party with god at the end. If we do not do what we need to do to reap rewards in this life, we lose. If we do not take care of the planet, our children lose. If we do not take care of each other, there is suffering. (and praying is a waste of time - it serves only to make the prayer feel better, and does nothing for others). If we do not stand up for justice, there is no one else who will. If we do not stand up for what is right, there is no one else who will. If we do not do our part to make this place - here and now - the best it can be, then our lives have been wasted.

Religion has a way to stealing all the good (and bad) things about humans and their interactions and pretending it invented them. Right and wrong, marriage, laws, etc. All these things existed before religion and will continue to after it.

~~~~~

"Defensive because Christianity teaches that you, as a non-Christian, are going to Hell? You shouldn't be -- if you're convinced this contention is false, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If you suspect it's true, you can convert."

It is not defensiveness. Only a statement on the arrogance of theists. There is nothing to worry about as hell is simply the adult verison of the Boogeyman. I would never convert - much less to a religion that hates women so much. After studying Judaism and Christianity for years and years, there is no othe conclusion to make than this: it (religion) was created by men, for men, is comprised of men and benefits only men. To say otherwise to is be willfully ignorant, or dishonest.

"Feminists need to accept that many women don't believe that careerism is an end, rather than a means. (Note that the woman most used as an illustration of the alleged sexism of Mars Hill has stated in this thread that her life was misrepresented.)"

What "feminist" claimed that "careerism" is an end? And of course that woman came back to defend her surrendering to a life of housework and subservience. If she was not compelled to by her hubby, she was compelled by her own defensiveness. Understand, I personally am not saying that a woman can't chose to do whatever she likes. if she choses to be a housewife, great. But Judy herself said that it was not her deicions, it was her surrendering to what someon told her god said she should do. I consider that suspect, and fail to see how anyone else doesn't.

"In addition, I'm struck by the corrosive contempt for children and parenthood expressed around this issue. Note the horror that some posters have shown because a woman left her "important" job of merchandizing trinkets at rock concerts to embrace the "menial" task of nurturing her children."

Hello strawman! Nurturing children is not a menial task, nor did anyone say such. Being little more than an unpaid chamber maid is. Having no other opportunities than to have more kids to clean up after is. It is not children or parenthood that any contempt is directed at. It is the sickening statements that such things are the only things women have to offer and that men apparently have no responsibility to pitch in. The contempt you see if directed at making the drugery of domestic work the responsibilty of women alone, and then telling them it will make them happier. It is a lie.

"Is it now the "progressive" position that women should farm the care of their children out to underpaid strangers in order to focus on serving corporate America?"

Who said anything about what type of work she should be doing? You assume to much.

"Which is a greater intellectual and spiritual challenge; marketing Metallica T-shirts or shaping the minds and spirits of human beings?"

Which is the greater intellectual challenge; running a business or scrubing the kitchen floor?