Jesus will come back and he'll take us -- well, at least us," he says, looking at me with a straight face, "and there will be an end to all things."

who is the "other" being referred to here? jews most likely, homosexuals undoubtedly and anyone else who doesn't adhere to such extremist beliefs. this is old wine in new bottles.

Appear to believe that it's your duty to jam your own values down everyone else throat? I need to understand how that's difference from any other kind of zealotry. If they're happy then it really doesn't matter how outraged they you are that they're not following your postmoderist ethos, does it? You're allowed to laugh and point and snicker about how backwards they are. Sure. But don't pretend for a moment that more evolved. I think the #1 problem with todays progressive types is that they ooze hubris and arrogance that they were somehow placed om the planet to show the rest of us how stupid we are and that we should be grateful for it.

These people are the same as all the rest of the bizarro right-wing freaky Christians that have always been around just wrapped in a different package. They are not any different just because the Pastor references Snoop Dogg or is accepting of tattoos.

This 'fierce' movement if laughable at best. Look to it's core and the same irresponsible messages are there.

This reminds me very much of the "Jesus People" movement of the late 60s and 70s. Then we had large numbers of young people who had essentially dropped out of mainstream culture. Many Christian groups were formed, typically under the leadership of a charismatic and authoritarian male. The typical form of community was the commune, in which the females cooked and cleaned house, and the males went out and made money on individual jobs or on group work projects managed by the commune. All of these Jesus People groups were fundamentalist, by which I mean that they saw the Bible as the actual and inerrant Word of God.

People on the outside of these group typically perceived those on the inside as "wonderful young people," and everyone always seemed happy. The problem is that these little Christian communities are like greenhouses, in which most of the information and examples come from within the group, and outside influences are greatly diminished. In other words, the group basically circles the wagons, but people really don't realize that is happening.

For example, for these Mars Hill women who have been turned into baby factories and domestic staff, "community" largely consists of OTHER baby factories and domestic staff. So you end up with people all thinking the same way, because all of the people they are friends with all think the same way. And then that in itself feels "wonderful" because everyone you know and value agrees with you! Any dissenting voices are always from outside the group, and thus suspect. So you end up with "groupthink" with a vengance, enforced by the "loving community" and a huge pressure to conform. Thus what really is oppression appears to the followers to be liberation.

The interesting question with the Mars Hill group is what happens when someone starts to emerge from the groupthink. In other words, what would happen if one of the wives decided that she didn't want to be a baby factory? What if one of the men decided that maybe the Bible isn't inerrant? In the real world, these things happen. And sometimes it happens after 20 or 30 years, and the person realizes that his or her life has basically been organized around a religious fantasy.

So there's nothing new here. It's just Jesus People with tattoos and iPods. Americans love religious revivals, and we have them all the time. So there's always the new and exciting preacher, the terrible sinner who is now saved, the counter-culture that erupts with fundamentalist zeal, the dynamic new Christian musician, the exciting new version of religion replacing the old and stale. We Americans love this stuff. Why do we love revivals? Because personal freedom is scary -- so scary that we'd rather have someone else tell us what to do, and give us all the answers. And having tattoos and an iPod makes it seem like a cool thing to do.

The only difference between these "aggressive" Christian evangelicals and the Taliban are superficial: clothes, tattoos, music. Otherwise, it's the same old extremist, patriarchal, xenophobic garbage that has plagued humanity ever since the first priest condemned the first infidel to everlasting torment.

Our Preznit could add "ChristoFascist" to his list of enemies in the never-ending war he has planned for us; alas, that will not happen, as he is their leader.

Oh yeah.

-- Strong, charismatic leader who sets the tone for the entire group.

-- Members (especially women) isolated from rest of society.

Cult. But, hey... I don't care. So are the Amish. As long as they treat their children and animals right and don't bother anyone else, they're okay with me. People believe all sorts of goofy-ass things.

BTW, at the very beginning of the piece, Lauren Sandler refers to "...where biblical orthodoxy rules as strictly as in Hasidism or Opus Dei." Opus Dei, like the rest of Roman Catholicism, is NOT biblically orthodox. Not by a long shot.

how sad that no one was asked to talk about their views on homosexuality. it would've been good to know if christianity's archaic take on it has been updated with these new radical believers.

This is just an extremely conservative church dressed in the trappings of the local culture. I don't think that being "punk rock" in Seattle is unusual, any more than being "country" in rural America is. The church is just reflecting the local culture. This is what evengelicalisim does, wherever it goes.

Now I am a old punk rock grrrl who goes to a Lutheran Church. My mom was a spiritual seeker. I have been to so many different churches that I refuse to teach sunday school. Who knows what I'll say if I go off script? My pastor often calls Christianity an Alternative Lifestyle. But he stretches my elderly congregation to be more loving, more giving, more inclusive. The emphasis in the ELCA isn't on a lighting moment of conversion. Spirituality is seen as a developmental process.

Actually last weeks sermon was about how people think they have it right and then start exculding other people. The statement that he made about community at the fence makes me think he forgot how often Jesus pointed out that some of the people who "got it" were outsiders. But then again, most punks and radical Christians see themselves as excluded from wider society. So it is a continuation of their feelings of being beleagured.

I love traditional church. I like the old and sometimes ancient music. It is often beautiful. Pastor is a quiet contemplative ex-hippie school teacher. Noone expects public delcarations of faith, which honestly scare me. (We are Lutherans. Keep it to yourself. We know why you're here. Quit showing off.) Noone is swaying like they are at a rock concert. We are at church. Not a rock concert. If you want to go to a show, GO to a show.The older women (and men! A Group called The Grumpy Old Men makes a lot of the food at big dinners) make good old fashioned nothern european stodge.

I love my music more than most. But I feel like there is a time and a place for everything. My secular life and church life are quite separate. My Church trusts me to make good choices for myself. I can eat curry and tacos and listen to whatever FIRST RATE music I want to on my own time. Church time is for feeding my spirit.

Wow! What a rant!