SKH Wrote: "I bet these radical churches are full of people who have trouble finding and maintaining satisfying relationships with others (hence the need for this artificial community), who have a shaky sense of themselves (easily manipulated to radically change their belief system), and who, for whatever reason (depression, drugs, mental illness?), can't logically think of a way to solve their problems without submitting to some patriarchal answer god.

If so then they will surely implode soon enough."

You bet? Those are some pretty huge assumptions to bet on, especially concerning your implode comment. Obviously churches have been around for hundreds of years and haven't imploded yet. Some of us have found and maintained satisfying, deep, caring relationships within faith communities, we walk in church confident individuals and walk out confident individuals who enjoy the fellowship of others. Wake up SKH, churches aren't going anywhere. There are needy, desperate people in all areas of life, some are in churches and some are in the Democratic Party, and unfortunately some are in the NRA, whatever, they are everywhere.

And as for your "...can't logically think of a way to solve their problems without submitting some patriarchal answer god" comment: There are millions of people outside of churches, believing in no god, who can't logically solve their problems either. Thus the plight of man, but it sounds like somehow you're enlightened, so please, do tell.

I am dying to know what denomination Mars Hill is affiliated with, came out of, or is closest to. Can anyone enlighten me?

Anyway I promised a comparison/contrast of Mars Hill and the ICOC. (Kip McKean Cult)

Ways they are alike:

1) Driscoll sounds EXACTLY like McKean!!!!!! and all the other coC or icoC male blowhards with his smarmy little "jokes" about his hyper-masculinity. I attend a mainline denomination that has an equal number of male and female preachers and you don't hear that (nor do you get hit over the head with tedious lectures about equality...you just see it in action) But the little heh-heh I eat STEAK not FISH, (Driscoll) I don't like to PLANT FLOWERS, I'm a HYPER-MASCULINE GUY, but I humored wifey when she made FISH, see how great of a husband I am (heh-heh) it's just so smarmy and such a part of the coC culture they don't think about it. I hated being a woman in that church. (church of Christ) It wasn't so much being steered to stay at home as the smarmy little put-downs that were supposed to be funny. I think I digressed, sorry, it was a long-simmering rant.

2) Singles living in the married people's basements. The ICOC herded single members into communal apartments with "men's ministers" and "women's ministers" to watch over them for two reasons. a) to make sure no one had sex, porn, or masturbated b) to get the extra money they didn't spend on rent because they lived 6 or 7 to a crappy apartment. ICOC singles notoriously were steered, nay directed, nay, commanded, to the crappy apartments on the "less safe" side of town, as a liberal I am not supposed to think there is a less safe side of town, but they were directed to the shall we say almost crappiest part of town, the part with a reputation for crime. Another reason for singles not being "allowed" to have more fabulous lives was that the possibility of dating was held over their heads to make them work hard for the church.

3) From the Driscoll podcast, sounds like the church tells people not just whom they can date but if they can date, marry, or remarry. Actually the Mars Hill Church's rules on divorce and remarriage sounded LESS strict than the ICOC. Some churches of Christ teach that if a couple was divorced and married to other people before they got converted, they have to divorce their current spouse and go back to their previous spouse. I am not kidding. Driscoll's rule was that they like to look up the person's old spouse and see if that person is amenable to coming back to the new convert, since the new convert has become a Christian, and give it a while and see if God will bring the ex-spouses back together. If not, then the church elders decide if the person is free to remarry on a case-by-case basis.

4) Elders and deacons....this sounds EXACTLY like the church of Christ. I don't even know another denomination that puts so much emphasis on elders and deacons.

5) Role of women ... EXACTLY the same in Mars Hill and church of Christ.

Ways Mars Hill is NOT like the ICOC and therefore probably isn't the ICOC in diguise:

1) Mars Hill believes in original sin, used the words "Total Depravity" on their website.

2) Mars Hill believes in salvation by faith and persistence of the saints. the church of Christ would NEVER say persistence of the saints.

I am sure I'll think of more ways they are different but they are more alike than different. However, original sin and total depravity are huge dividing lines in Christianity so I don't think these guys came from the same vein. I would bet that Mars Hill came from some kind of strict Presbyterian vein. I believe there are several very strick Presbyterian veins that give the church of Christ a run for their money in terms of strictness, so that's what I'm betting. Does anyone know?

Somebody get the word out to these ladies: Any preacher who wants you to think of Snoop Dogg the next time you read Genesis hasn't got your best interests in mind.

that was the funniest (and most insightful) comment yet!

I'm sorry to see this discussion curdle, but am not surprised. The recipe for religion is something like 25% a search for spirituality, 25% group psychology and 50% dogma. Some sects preserve the essence of spirituality much more efficiently, or manage to build a better community - mostly minus the political infighting. None, however, eliminate the dogma. It's the dogma that ultimately erodes the spirit and erects the walls between believer and believer-in-something-slightly-different.

Why? Because there isn't ultimately any "there" under there. Those things that are true in a religion - any religion - don't require the propping up of dogma. Those things that are false will never become more true because of it.

Revelation is in the searching, not in the finding - else what does "eternity" mean?

...and yes - some of us in the outside world also have friends who help us build fences. A familiar phrase is "good fences make good neighbors". I'll bet we'll hear this a lot in the run up to the election while discussing immigration issues. Like many aphorisms, its meaning has long since been reversed completely. From Frost's "Mending Wall" (http://www.bartleby.com/118/2.html):

“Why do they make good neighbours? Isn’t it

Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.

Before I built a wall I’d ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offence.

but enlightenment can't be forced on someone else through dogma:

Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,

That wants it down.” I could say “Elves” to him,

But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather

He said it for himself.

and

He moves in darkness as it seems to me,

Not of woods only and the shade of trees.

He will not go behind his father’s saying,

And he likes having thought of it so well

He says again, “Good fences make good neighbours.”

(It's a shame to excerpt a perfect poem.)

It ain't about the fences - it's about the neighbors.