"Grunge" evangelical Christianity, a la Mars Hill Church, smells to me like a fad. It's going to run out of steam before it can achieve much political traction.

For one, "grunge" Christianity appeals to young adults--who are absolutely notorious for "trying on" lifestyles, only to move on after a few years. The creed's anti-intellectual dogma and its followers' grooming affectations, generally, will strike us as dated in the not too distant future. For another, this stripe of Christianity is antifeminist, which is sooner or later going to spark the better instincts of its young female adherents. OK, you "trade" your independence for "security" and "family." What kind of deal is that, really?

The fact that this movement is so linked to jejune pop culture and trendy affectations is the reason why it's weak - and not strong at all. I'd be more impressed, in the way the author obviously intends, if the church was strong enough to wean these kids away from that stuff. The fact that it still has to cater to this approach is the reason why it just isn't that scary.

The saddest part is that women don't have to trade at all: you can have independence, family, and security. It's sad that people don't believe that, or think it's somehow dangerous or un-Christian.

Somebody said: Christians are Target Number One in the world of religion. If that makes you happy, if you think that's what "they deserve"...blah blah blah

Yes, we all knoooow that's what poor, persecuted Xtians love to tell themselves. It's the foundation of their religion, afterall.

Poster fails to realize that pretty much any religion but Islam is a target in the countries he/she mentions.

Funnily enough, he/she also fails to mention that in this country, what qualifies as the persecution of Xtians is the desire to remove "...under God" from the Pledge, the "war on Christmas", etc. i.e. - the desire of the "rest of us" to be able to live our lives free from the Xtian propaganda that is so overt, pervasive, and constant in the U.S.A.

I actually visited Mars Hill out of curiosity and found Driscoll's sermon to be oddly shallow (nothing like watching people work at being hip) while peppered with a heaping dose of sexism. What was conspicuously lacking seemed to be any real discussion of spiritual values such a love, charity, compassion. I fully understand why the Salon article took the tone it did after visiting.

After the opening ceremony, Driscoll took center stage. While the people around me laughed at his jokes, I was having a hard time with this sermon.

In this case, he was talking about the biblical story of Jacob’s wives, Rachel (who is beautiful) and Leah (whom Jacob is tricked into marrying.) He would project a bible passage on a screen, then talk about it at length, injecting his own brand of humor into it. A lot of his material was firmly grounded in traditional gender roles. He talked quite a little bit about how “hot, hot, hot” women inspire men to succeed. This was a sermon more or less on female hotness with an inane “un-masculine men are pathetic and play with dolls/ugly women are kind of funny” comedy routine. After this train of monologue continued, I decided to leave.

I felt relief mixed with crankiness once outside. I had gone in knowing that I would be an outsider, but I was still aggravated by Driscoll's glib brand of sexism.

Secular or not, I think the audience could have handled the story with less shtick and “Leah means cow” jokes. In trying so hard to make the story “cool," Driscoll resorted to patronizing his audience, demeaning women, and superficiality rather than a deep discussion of values. I found no discussion of truth or beauty at Mars Hill, but perhaps that's just too un-masculine for Driscoll.

Stores like this prove there is a hunger for religion but it is being exploited by the ideologues hungry for all the attention they can get. How dangerous a fellow like this can become as he ages and finds out how easily these gullible kids can be deceived is a long standing problem. But more than that, the problem is with those who know better, who actually have faith in a loving god, who do not reach out to the young. The old organized religions are so badly buried in hypocracy now the underlying values are lost, and the kids who don't know any better revert to these demented charismatics. It's just as Yeats said:

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold,

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood dimmed tide is loosened, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Ben Sen

not to dis anyone who lives in a trailer park...but...is it just me, or does this "church" carry the distinct whiff of a southern trailer park full of white people with it?

Man, that sounds horrible when I read it back, but, follow it out. there is a certain strain of unrefined know-nothingness in this country that seems to have infected a lot of people. Including these people.

And, yeah, as someone else said, if things ever get really bad (or *when* they do), we'll be fighting this in the streets, because religious armies are THE post-apocalyptic survival strategy, in any age.

Dressing a helpless, innocent baby in a Metallica t-shirt?

Looks as if this "anti-intellectual" church has reached its target market.

You are a real class act.

Judy, thank you for speaking up. As a woman who also used to work in rock & roll, I understand your disgust with the sexism which is impossible to escape. My company -- one of the world's huge conglomerates -- used to hold region meeting at strip clubs. and I won't even get into the kind of behavior that occurred on tour.

I also understand the beauty of feeling that life means something, that your presence means something, and that you are valued and loved. It must have felt amazing to be told that, when you weren't valued before, when things weren't optimal, that now they would be. And even better to be surrounded with a community that reinforced these positive feelings.

However, facing a similar dissatisfaction with the same world, I did not make the choice that you have made, and I question whether it is the appropriate decision for an individual and woman who is capable of great things. The rock & roll world isn't a good world. It is sexist, destructive, unfair, and immoral, and you deserve better. You deserve better, too, than to be told that your primary value is in your womb and your primary role is one of support. In fact, let me tell you this now: your primary value is you, and your primary role is one of seeking and growing and being who you were meant to be.

I hope that you find a place in this world which lies somewhere between rock & roll and subjugation -- some place where you can be valued, nurtured and loved. But above all I hope you find a place where you are loved enough to be given the freedom of self-determination.