Re: Mars Hill Graduate School. I apologize for being wrong about its connection to the church. Its’ true it was an assumption, but an easy one to make given the proximity of the two institutions to each other in Seattle. I have also met interns from Mars Hill graduate school, and they talked about being members of Mars Hill church.

Anyway, Mars Hill graduate school is a self-professed evangelical Christian institution:

http://www.mhgs.edu/common/about.asp?m=ps#doc

A good reminder to all of us to check the credentials of any health or mental health practitioner before we hire them. Therapists do bring their own values and philosophy into their work – they are human after all.

It’s always odd seeing people trying to get over shaming by shaming, over problems with mood alteration through mood alteration, over fanaticism by fanaticism. It doesn’t matter whether it’s street people in Seattle or fanatical Bush versus fanatical Osama, it’s using poison to try neutralizing poison. Many of us understand the tricks involved – egolessness through self-hate rather than self-healing; the idolatrous spiritual materialism of inerrancy; macho men controlling others to comfort their own terror of change - so we see clear of them.

I wouldn’t mention it if it wasn’t free to read on the web, and if I didn’t think it was to the point, but my book’s googled at “Rabid Fanatic” +”Monty Johnston”.

Thanks, Lauren Sandler, and good luck to your book.

Best, Monty Johnston

I appreciate that this author may have not seen christianity packaged like it is at Mars Hill. I have. In Tucson, AZ, in 1972 I got saved and submitted to my husband for almost 20 years after. The Jesus Freak movement in the '70s, of which I was a part, was exactly what is happening in Seattle in 2006. Of the close friends which were part of that movement none of us continue in Discipleship. Our children, who were raised "in the fear of the Lord," no longer want anything to do with Christianity and one of my daughters wants nothing to do with any belief system.

The attraction is security. While certainty is comforting in this chaotic world, it doesn't have staying power. Women aren't necessarily going to flourish in subjugation just because they "believe" it is god's word. In fact, I'm grateful that this system can't work in the long-term. It robbed me of decades of freedom and choice while motivating me, in turn, to rob my daughters of the possibility of exploring and enjoying their feminine selves fully. Thankfully this system self-destructs as life moves along.

I left christianity for an earth-based feminist culture. I still encounter spiritual ecstasy as I did in Discipleship, but the dogma allows me full participation. I still have deep religious convictions but they come from my core being, not from a manuscript written by men to explain god.

I have sympathy for the women, especially, portrayed in this article. Some day they will once again have to stand on their own feet and think their own thoughts. When that time comes they will realize how long they have been shackled and how crippled it has rendered them. I hope that day comes sooner rather than later, both for them and for their children.

There is nothing new about Discipleship. It is the old doctrine of oppression based on religious dogma. We are very familiar with it, in fact right now it is running this country and terrorizing the world. As the song says, "when will we learn, when will we ever learn?"

This was never a teaching of Christ, who taught that people should love with no conditions.

>>Whatever happened to "God helps those who help themselves"?<<

Answer: I don't know since "God helps, etc." is a non- biblical saying. I prefer Isaiah 40:31: "But those who trust in the Lord for help will find their strength renewed. They will rise on wings like eagles; they will run and not get weary, they will walk and not grow weak." (GNT)

I'm a Seattleite and I sure don't think there are too few Christian (or any other type) babies here! Having driven past the Mars Hill Church many times and wondered about it this article now will change my driving habits... I will have to look for alternate routes soon!

Driscoll seems, on the surface, to be a caring guy. It's just that when things get peeled back that you see the vestiges of all the other control freaks that have run organized religion for millenia. On the one hand it's great to have community, people you care about and people that care about you... however when it comes on the heels of dogma entrenched in the bible (or any other work of fiction) you can bet that intolerance and contempt are just around the corner... and I'm not talking about the secular community.

This whole notion that the bible spells out implicitly how to live your life - and tell others how they should live theirs is false. Women put up with this sort of crap for a miriad of reasons I'm sure... and guys that like to play king-of-the-castle are generally lacking either self-esteem or are not all that well educated.

Religious evangelism breeds intolerance pure and simple. It may not seem like it at the time when you're all teary-eyed over a sweet, rockin' rendition of Amazing Grace....

Peace.

of confusion here about the role of women in Christianity, and whether or not Mars Hill is teaching that a woman is nothing more than a childbearing slave to her husband. Though I do not attend this church, I would bet that due to their strong biblical stance they teach and actually adhere to the following:

1 Corinthians 7

3-4

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Ephesians 5

"22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This is the source text that all Christian churches use for how husbands and wives relate to each other. Is there a hierarchy? Yes. Does that mean that men are slave owners, and that women have no say in the family? Well... Do you see that in the above? I don't. I am supposed to show my wife the same respect I show myself

Please do not get spun-up on hierarchy. It exists. It is a law of nature, and will exist whether you like it or not. It is actually a good thing when it is not abused. It provides clarity and order. Do you not like it that Christianity defines its particular hierarchy? I can't help that, but I can say that it does not make me an overlord, it does, however make me responsible for my piece of the effort. It does not make me "better" than my wife in any way.

To answer someone else's post about "Show me in the bible where women aren't supposed to work outside the home..." The answer is that it's not in there, and I don't think Mars Hill teaches that. I would bet that they teach:

Proverbs 31

10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.

16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all."

31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

I am thankful to have wife like that.

Best wishes,

Poco