Poco, how is hierarchy in marriage a law of nature? Why is marriage better if one spouse is above the other? If "clarity" means one person making decisions, I'd rather have a "confused" relationship--where two adults learn to discuss, compromise, and come to mutually acceptable decisions. It takes work, but it's worth it, and it makes a marriage stronger in the end.

-from a 30-year-old churchgoing Episcopalian who's, thankfully, in a marriage based on equal partnership

It is obvious that the real take away here is that the accepted cultural markers for rebellion--tattoos, rock, hair, clothes, etc-are now obsolete. These previous tasty bits of counterculture are now mainstream culture as measured by their complete adoption (co-optation) by members of some of our largest cultural institutions, eg. the Christian Church. Once "Christian" rock bands are indistinguishable from actual rock bands, and you can purchase your "alternative " kit off the shelf, you know the schtick is dead. It had a good long run, but it is now time to exercise a little creativity and come up with something new.

Contrary to many popular pronouncements American culture is not shallow, sterile, or valueless (though many of our citizens are). American life is rich in culture and if you look there is a lot of material for a new meaningful counter culture, or even just a plain meaningful culture, but it takes some effort to come to. Umm, like you have to read a book or two. Many people seem to be too lazy to avail themselves of this culture and prefer pre-packaged full-meal deals like the Mars Hill Church. A new alternative culture needs to be developed for these lazier people.

This future rebellion should obviously make a radical departure from what is essentially Rock culture (1966-2006 r.i.p). I am not sure what to suggest. I tried conducting what I called a preppy rebellion from 1993-1998, that is co-opting the very traditional preppy look, listening to old jazz, disengaging from popular culture, and writing formal poetry and faux 19th century novels, but it was pretty much a failure and never really caught on. ANd I got tired of explaining that I was not a conservation, but was instead a radical. For those of you who can remember 1993, it was a period when the native culture of the Pacific Northwest had been turned into a ubiquitous, world-wide fashion phenomena. It was disconcerting to see my native culture abused on the streets of Paris in the form of young French girls wearing high, lace-up logger boots. Anyway, the point is all of that is philosphically dead and the kids need to come up with something new. Three piece suits? Classical music? Folk culture? Togas and Periclean Athens? Get to it!

of confusion here about the role of women in Christianity, and whether or not Mars Hill is teaching that a woman is nothing more than a childbearing slave to her husband. Though I do not attend this church, I would bet that due to their strong biblical stance they teach and actually adhere to the following:

1 Corinthians 7

3-4

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Ephesians 5

"22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This is the source text that all Christian churches use for how husbands and wives relate to each other. Is there a hierarchy? Yes. Does that mean that men are slave owners, and that women have no say in the family? Well... Do you see that in the above? I don't. I am supposed to show my wife the same respect I show myself

Please do not get spun-up on hierarchy. It exists. It is a law of nature, and will exist whether you like it or not. It is actually a good thing when it is not abused. It provides clarity and order. Do you not like it that Christianity defines its particular hierarchy? I can't help that, but I can say that it does not make me an overlord, it does, however make me responsible for my piece of the effort. It does not make me "better" than my wife in any way.

To answer someone else's post about "Show me in the bible where women aren't supposed to work outside the home..." The answer is that it's not in there, and I don't think Mars Hill teaches that. I would bet that they teach:

Proverbs 31

10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.

16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all."

31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

I am thankful to have wife like that.

Best wishes,

Poco