"we're doing just fine without your stupid Jesus and we'd like to be free to keep it that way, thanks!"

What do you fear so much, so as to make such a crude statement? How is anyone "forcing something down your throat", by simply practicing a particular philosophy? Your fear does not seem rational.

"So many (Christians) are simply washouts and losers who couldn't hack it without some kind of silly spiritual crutch. I'm sorry that your friends all hated you and that your family was full of losers."

Whatever other nice things you and your family may be, respectful is obviously not one of them. Have you taught your children to be as respectful and tolerant as you are being? Have you taught them to fear and hate others, because they believe or practice a different philosophy? What is "the love of God" to you? Do you practice it? What kind of "love" do you practice? One that is intolerant of others? It would seem so. Hopefully, your children are more loving, polite and tolerant than the person who raised them. Otherwise, they may grow up, become politicians, and outlaw any philosophy that they do not agree with. In the meantime, its great that you have a nice house, marriage, and job.

Best wishes,

Poco

P.S. I'm not your son.

I wrote up a long response to a previous post, but the simple truth is that it was just too long to read. :)

In short, it is still an issue of religious freedom, and assuming that everyone would be content to live as a liberal agnostic is delusional. These are people (men AND women) that have *voluntarily* decided to join this church and to follow its teachings. They were not raised in this church, although a good number were raised in similar types of faiths. Many, in fact, probably would have found some other, similar church if Mars Hill was not there, to be quite honest. To characterize all of them as lost, wayward souls duped by a fascist charlatan is painting the situation with far too broad of a brush.

While dictating what someone's gender roles should be is wrong, what if someone *voluntarily* makes the choice? What does it matter to you? That is their right, and to second-guess anyone about decisions like that is not my business or yours. Period. Just because it doesn't fulfill your perspective on how a liberated woman should behave doesn't make it wrong for her, no matter how much it may grate on our sensibilities. Claiming that they have been coerced is belittling the fact that people do have free will and responsibility for their own actions, and many people actually do buy what Driscoll is selling, believe it or not. Thinking that we should try to "save" people from these religious beliefs is, in effect, a presumptuous imposition of our beliefs on others. They are free to live their lives as they see fit, even if we might personally believe that they might regret their decisions later.

This is also *not* a church in a fortified compound out in the middle of nowhere. Seriously. It isn't even on a hill. Many of them are pleasant, a few (like Dietz) aren't. They lease out space to an all-ages music venue. The pastor likes to shoot his damn fool mouth off, which is not necessarily taken without a rolling of the eyes by some of the people in the audience. (To assume that he has absolute control over them is overstating it a tad.) And they are expanding. That's all there is to it. To assume that this will be a Jonestown or Waco is garbage, as is calling them "bible thumping clueless zealots", followers of fairy tales, drinkers of Kool-Aid, sheep, American Taliban, or comparing them to the FLDS or Scientology. Bigotry shouldn't have a place in debate on either side, and throwing insults really doesn't do a damn thing.

And as much as this may seem like a cult to some people, how exactly does one come to that conclusion from the outside? And what do you do about it? Force the men and women at gunpoint to be more egalitarian / feminist / liberated? Require them to become Unitarians? Get them to renounce Jesus? Put them in jail? What? This church is, like it or not, serving a need for people, a need that they are just not getting elsewhere. Again, many of the people that attend would believe this stuff anyway, even if they didn't have Driscoll around. Poo-pooing the sense of community that these people have because it does conform to our impressions of what it wou is elitist snobbery, plain and simple. Assuming that people are naturally liberal Christians or agnostics by default and should remain that way is just wrong-headed, and is oblivious to the realities of our society today.

Of course, this all does start becoming my problem if (or when) they start working their political power to influence the public sphere and groups other than their own, if they actively abuse their members, or if they start proselytizing to me directly. (The MA in Counseling does step over that line, as did this whole business with Tim Eyman and R-65.) Then, I have no problem opposing them about those things. But the freedom of religion is not a relative. It doesn't come into play with religions that I particularly like or agree with. It is an absolute.

bma

>I learned that Mars Hill has it's own "MA Counseling" program, and was shocked to learn that secular mental health agencies, including my own, recruit and hire interns from this program.<

This is why society has been having problems over the past few years with pharmacists/paramedics/medical personnel refusing to treat people because "birth control is against God's will" or whatever. The Christo-conservatives did a massive push a good ten years back to get believers through school and into positions where they can force (or sneak) their religion on people. And people think Mars Hill is harmless?