"The American Taliban strikes again. What is different from what these people believe and what our "Islamofascist enemies" believe? Answer: absolutely nothing. You say Mohammed, we say Jesus. Same utter bullshit.

Yes, modern western life is devoid of love and caring. That's a result of GREED, people, not lack of adherence to ridiculous 2000-year-old standards of sexual morality. It's GREED that has ruined America, not birth control.

The women are especially pathetic. "Choice" feminism, my ass. You can't choose to be a slave, you're coerced into it because you're made to feel you have no other options"

deboramom, very good!

From the Mars Hill Church Website:

"The elders (“pastors”) of Mars Hill are appointed by God to shepherd and lead the flock of Mars Hill. It is our desire to lead this Church through this culture in a way pleasing to the Lord."

Meanwhile back in the real world, these women don't seem to realize that their (debatably free) choice to subjugate themselves to this ideology and their husbands means that they are not excercising individual free will, but merely buying into a cult mentality.

It's sad, really. That people nowadays can't seem to come to terms with their disillusionment with modern society in ways other than by joining some cult with a basis in the supernatural. The supernatural aspect of it puts it above accountability and question by anyone on our "level", and leads only to someone grabbing all the power (while lying about it of course) and directly contradicting the very teachings of the supernatural prophet they claim to represent.

But then that's always been the great thing about Christianity: one of its fundamental tenets is that we're imperfect! So you'll always have an excuse. How convenient!

Sign me up.

This all reminds me of growing up in Tulsa in the 70s & 80s, where the tradition continues of desperate appeals to youth by out-of-touch adults trying to be cool. Look up "Carman", "G.U.T.S." & the hilarious but terrifying haunted houses that aim to scare the hell out of (literally) the kids with horror-movie scenes set in raves, gay clubs, etc. To each his own and marketing is marketing. This is all I would have to say about the topic if these movements did not also include aggressive tactics of "saving" the rest of the world. I take umbrage with this statement by bma "The idea of a dark conspiracy dedicated to taking over the entire world through prayer groups and sing-alongs, though, honestly appears to be indicative of deep-seated insecurities on our part." Hmm; perhaps people would not be paranoid and disturbed by such movements if they kept their teachings and philosophies to themselves instead of accosting people in public or even worse, deploying surreptitious, covert methods of proselytization.

Recent example from 2001 (everyone I know has a littany of similar occurences and not just in Oklahoma): I attended a medical center in Tulsa for a basic checkup and chose this facility based on proximity of my office at the time. In the midst of the intake process and typical barage of questions about my health, a doctor asked me if I attended church and when I answered "no" (I should have answered "none of your business" but was taken off guard) he began to ask me "why not?" etc. He then told me that he was going to pray over me and started wheeling his chair to my side of the tiny room with hands outstretched. WHAT?? I put my hands up and yelled (I am not exaggerating) and he ran out of the room. I filed a complaint with the PR/ombudsperson of the facility who informed me that the medical facility was owned and managed by a church group whose mission was to "show people the way to Jesus Christ". I was furious and pointed out that there was not ANY EXPLANATION or introduction of new patients to this philosophy. If they would have explained their evangelical mission over the phone when I made the appointment, ideally, or at least when I arrived for the appointment I could have avoided this. Instead I was accosted, violated and taken advantage of in a vulnerable position, a sneak attack; that day I was physically shaking when I left. They listened to my complaint and read my letter to owners, but never apologized and continued to attempt to convince me to attend their church!! Unbelievable. Leave me alone; go to your own church and do what you want; why are my friends, family and I not allowed to do the same in peace? Jesus would have probably liked all the music and celebrating but what about the judgemental, manipulative, duplicitous behavior?

Sandler's claim that "Christian youth is deinstitutionalizing the American church for the first time in about 400 years" is overblown. The history of American evangelicalism is full of movements which harness popular energies in order to change the structure of society. Go back to 1900 and the social gospel evangelicals, or to 1800 and the Second Great Awakening, and you'll find movements quite like the youth movement Sandler so ably describes. The real discontinuity in the history of American evangelicalism is actually the period in the early- to mid-20th century when evangelicals attempted to gain social respectability by imitating mainline denominations.

Might be to find someone who has left the Mars Hill Church. The church says they don't prevent people from leaving and that everyone involved is there by choice. Let's hear from someone who left. The church has been around long enough that the law of averages must come into play. There has to be someone - let's hear their experience.

that there is deliberate planning to

force their brand of religion on

unsuspecting people by sneaking it in

at the doctor's office, etc.

We have a "news" website in my city that's

pretty inocuous, but, it has one section

about how to force christianity on coworkers in

the workplace. It's horrible!

And they even address how if someone at

work complains (about being forced to

pray or lose their job) you are supposed

to counter with screams of Attack on

Christianity! and you're being forbidden

to mention God at work.

It's scary.