Somehow, reading about a group of people a decade younger than me who perpetuate the doctrine that women are second class citizens is very depressing indeed.

1. This fundamentalism is NOT a decent expression of Christianity. Poster Hausfrauatu gave us look at a different, better Christian congregation. Plenty of congregations still know the Prince of Peace and the God of Love. I encourage you to find them.

2. These 21st century American fundamentalists are NOT just the same-old-same-old-same-old. They are different because they have taken political power. Of all the US Presidents in my lifetime (Truman through W.Bush), only two (Carter and W.Bush) have had Christian (or "Christian") components in their public personnas... And W.Bush is the only Political Fundamentalist President, AND he is the worst president in US history. We are in a new political era.

We do not know whether our christianist population will reach critical mass, and actually take over our political life. If they do, we will be in big trouble. All the posters here who fear dominating, bullying fundamentalist leaders are correct. Let me stress also that our christianists are not in interested in reason, except as an argumentative ploy. To the extent that they take over, they will throw out the rational basis of our laws and our society.

They may have peaked, though. Just below the surface, we see disputes between different sorts of christianists . For example, fundamentalists who believe in adult baptism still hate fundamentalists who believe in infant baptism. And the American fundamentalist scene is a big Holier-Than-Thou Pissing Contest. Christianist pastors and preachers and radio hosts continually compete with each other to appear "more Christian" and "more saved."

These creeps do not have a stable alliance. If they get power, they probably will destroy each other and themselves through this sin of pride.

How far are we from forced conversions?

To be honest, this line scared the shit out of me...I have bandied about the "American Taliban" stuff around when describing the stereotypical mega-church, Dobson following Bush supporters in the past. Not only are they here; they are trying to breed themselves into the majority.

Terrifying stuff (though not scary enough to force me to have the Jesus-botomy).

I just have a feeling that this group is not going to ease into memory and obscurity.

Do they go the violent standoff way or the slow death of investigation and scandal? How long before they are stockpiling guns and building bunkers and/or scamming money from people...

I feel a little bad saying this (I really don't want anyone to get hurt), but I hope this ends poorly for them...otherwise it may end poorly for us.

>It seems to me this is exactly the kind of pain and oppression Mr. Driscoll is trying to release his followers from<

What this pastor is about is control, no more, no less. He had a turbulent, unhappy childhood, and like far too many folks who take things to extreme, he only feels safe and secure when he's got a world he can run. (That is why groups like this invariably get more restrictive and conformist--those at the top fear dissention and disturbance worse than anything and will do almost anything to prevent it.) He promises "pain-relief" if people go along with his program, but he's the one getting the feeling of safety and security from having people under his thumb. The article didn't mention Driscoll's mother, but I wouldn't have been surprised if she had turned out to be a working woman whom he bitterly resented for not being a properly-submissive mother 24/7. Even if she had worked to support him, she would have been transgressing from her "proper" place. There are a lot of guys out there who resent women because of similar childhood experiences. This guy just takes that to the extreme.

Driscoll's & Dietz' brand of fundamentalist, counter-culture extremism is no different from the Young Life movement of the 1970's which was instrumental in "leading me to Christ." Yeah, we were counter culture too -- distrusted adults, smoked cigarettes, went to R-rated movies, wore ripped jeans and Jesus shoes, had our own para-church structure, and thought our brand of "missional living" -- we called it incarnational misistry -- would turn the world upside down for Jesus. I became an agnostic after graduating from Fuller Seminary, largely because of the hypocrisy that I saw in my own life and within my circle of Christian aquaintenances. Most of my friends who continued in faith have for the most part become mainstream Republican fascists -- something that the Mars Hill group seems well on its way to becoming; either that, or the next Jonestown. One only hopes that poor Sarah Dietz and Judy Abolafya keep listening to that still small voice of reason that says "Eject!" and act on it before they throw away their lives.

these are many of the thoughts that went through my head during my eighteen years of living through fundamentalism.

i am very dismayed and saddened to know that my own family allows this systematic abuse of females to continue.

one of the major turning points for me was seeing how compassionate my mother and father were when they were at home, but how chastising and cruel my father's rhetoric was at church.

it was terrifying.

witnessing this, i knew that there was something "off" about the church -- that something about the atmosphere of the church allowed people to say truly horrible, twisted things in a safe environment without fear of retaliation.

to me, fundamentalism is the sign of people who have lost a grip on something they so desperately want to hold onto.

in the case of the church i went to -- and it appears to be the same in this article -- it is the control of women. somewhere along the line, men have lost it, and they want it back.

if you ask me, it sounds like the plot to a horror film. and for many, it is.

Relgious fundamentalism and closed-mindedness go hand in hand. Another letter writer was right: How friggin' boring.

As long as people keep believing in fairy tales about virgin births, great floods, talking snakes and donkeys, harems of virgins,and heaven and hell, we're all doomed to an eternity of warfare, opression, and hatred disguised as love.

Give me a break. Organized religion is a virus; a scourge and ironically proof that as a species, humans are not evolving.