Letters to the Editor
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Well if I'd known we could just make up stuff...
>>When European and North American scientists meet and discuss animal lab environmental enrichment, the Europeans mock and ridicule us because only we have the attitude that tests are more valid when you deprive an animal of all comfort, all stimulation, any quality of life. >>
That's not true; I can't even imaine how someone would think anyone would believe that.
Talk to a research scientist to works on cancer, tumors, leukemia. They care about saving lives in the most humane way.
Saying that American scientists PREFER to deprive animals of all comfort is to call them all sadists. I know that's what you people think. But they are people just like us. MOthers, fathers, husbands, wives. Neat interesting people who work long hours and average pay in the hopes of eliminating cancer from our world. They do not savor torturing animals.
And yes, without apology, I will always favor my life over a rat. If it was me and a rat on a lifeboat, I'd throw that sucker off in a heartbeat. No qualms at all.
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Mocking and ridiculing
judydh,
Never met a scientist, huh? Only know of them from those 1950s movies with the guys in white lab coats?
Ever think you might get further in your arguments if you didn't make wild accusations with no basis in truth?
Please, go back to your cave and cuddle with your rats. Lets hope for your sake they don't get too hungry.
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fact
more misinformation.
They do NOT use rats because "they are so like us" (emotional heartstrings!)--because they aren't.
They use rats because they're the cheapest and they reproduce quickly and abundantly.
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To Cosmicmojo
"If it was me and a rat on a lifeboat, I'd throw that sucker off in a heartbeat. No qualms at all."
You're a real sweetheart.
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Her and a rat
jackson,
So you'd seriously contemplate giving up your spot? Jump overboard for the good of ratdom everywhere?
That said, she'd be making a mistake to throw the rat off so quickly. She could eat it if need be.
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BTW, rats are invaders. They are NOT indiginous to the US and are parasites
>>"If it was me and a rat on a lifeboat, I'd throw that sucker off in a heartbeat. No qualms at all."..
of course, I'd have to touch it to throw it overborad...
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To Kristina Diamant:
Direct Quote, standard Copy and Paste: "What these "researchers"do make Mengele and his experiments on concentration camp victims, kindergarden stuff."
You should be ashamed of yourself, comparing the suffering of human beings to lab animals.
I am horrified that you could spew forth such ignorant garbage. You should be ashamed of yourself. In a million years I couldn't imagine somebody having such a misguided and ignorant view.
Please read a book (or even two!) about the atrocities that took place during the Holocaust before regurgitating your extremist animal rights propaganda.
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Socrates lives! (on DVD in the remainder bin)
Well, I guess we know who Judydh was rooting for when she saw the movie "Willard." Very informative letter, though. Everyone needs a hobby, now we know that Judydh's is to cry every time a rat is killed. She must spend a fortune on tissues. So after reading CosmicMojo's "I'm better than a rat" and her rat retort, I have to thank her for reminding me that a fundamentalist of any stripe...or claw...or religion...is someone to be avoided at all costs. Remember, Ford Prefect said they'll win because they care fanatically more than we do, so we might as well just go to a really good party while we still can. (Then again, Douglas Adams had the rats pegged at #1 on the I.Q. scale and humans only 3rd. Hmmm.....)
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OMG that would be worse than touching it to throw it overboard!
>>That said, she'd be making a mistake to throw the rat off so quickly. She could eat it if need be>>
seriously, I value the lifesaving medications we have over the rats' lives.
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ditto ditto ditto
>>What these "researchers"do make Mengele and his experiments on concentration camp victims, kindergarden stuff."
You should be ashamed of yourself, comparing the suffering of human beings to lab animals.
You should be ashamed.
You've also totally lost any credibility you had by making up rediculous and hurtful info. You were very insensitive to Holocaust victims and their families. Do you care about rats more than people?
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This discussion is getting insane.
Perhaps inevitably, a discussion of animal rights has devolved into shrieks about whose lives are worth more, full of mockery of anyone who even *questions* whether humans are the end-all and be-all of existence.
What is wrong with saying: Suffering inflicted upon an animal is wrong. It may be necessary now, but it is nonetheless wrong. So we humans should try to find ways to lessen the suffering while it is necessary and avoid the suffering altogether in the future, while still delivering the benefits that make it necessary now because we haven't figured out a better way.
This huffing about "my life is worth more than a rat's" seems to make light of the genuine pain these creatures go through. If we truly value the contribution these animals make to our well-being, we should show some fucking respect to their involuntary sacrifices.
(Besides, I think everyone knows at least one person who has proven through his or her actions that his or her life is worth less than that of a rat. Humans *are* animals, and we are much closer to primates, dogs and rats than we are to gods.)
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the actuyal act is cited by a poster a few pages back
>>And no wonder that rats and mice aren't covered by animal welfare regulations for pharma and other companies.>>
Also wrong. check your facts lady.
You can't just lie, even if it's to save rats.
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seriously, scientists DO have rigid standards
just one example is:
the APA's
Guidelines for Ethical Conduct in the Care and Use of Animals.
You can find it at their web page (it was WAY too long to paste here).
So, that middle road (we need the research, but let's be as humane as possible) *is* what's going on now. Many researchers will tell you it wasn't as humane 15 years ago and they're all glad it is more humane now.
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Observe more, test less
There are small things we can all do about animal testing. We can only buy cosmetics/toiletries that say "this product was not tested on animals"...that would be a start. And as someone has already observed..if we eat meat we are already personally engaging in animal cruelty. And all this bad-mouthing of rats.. rats are very smart and they'll probably inherit this earth along with the cockroaches once we all ruin this planet. I read somewhere last week that rats laugh! While I don't condone the violence these cursaders indulge in, it's OK with me if they make the names and addresses known of the people who work for and invest in companies that torture animals. And all the animals used in experiments should be vidotaped..at all times..have a camera on them...to ensure proper "humane" treatment. If we'd listen to and observe animals more carefully and kindly..then we might learn important things. Dogs warn people of cancer, imminent seizures..and other dangers.. we ought to listen more to them.