Letters to the Editor
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@ johncp
If she (LW) starts deliberately noticing men in reaction to what her boyfriend is doing (and I am not arguing that she shouldn't do this), isn't that a form of training?
Personally, I would not like to devote too much time to figuring out how to train a man. I have had enough trouble with the dog. I took him to three trainers. I noticed something. Most training is owner training. In other words, you are proposing that she change a behavior of hers to see how he reacts to it. At the risk of offending everyone and starting a cycle all over again, any idiot can jerk on a leash. It takes thought to affect real change.
Every relationship we have (unless our boss happens to be a moronic dictator) is about compromise, negotiation, and sometimes making changes ourselves. I think people have misunderstood and perhaps been unnecessarily offended by the training concept. Since women are compared to female dogs all the time by men who are offended by them, it is strange that the training metaphor aroused such ire.
Too many men contend that they cannot change their natures. Okay. However, they can change their behaviors. Since the LW is hurt fairly often by her boyfriend's behavior and she has voiced this hurt, if he loves her, shouldn't he be willing to make a behavior change and be more discreet? If not, maybe we are not talking about love but power plays. Perhaps he is getting some sort of "reward" from her hurt feelings.
I think she should try what you suggest or maybe some of the other suggestions (my own was offered mostly in jest) if just talking to him won't work. If he still is unwilling to make a change, maybe something else is going on.
The LW, who says she is not beautiful, should take comfort from the fact that few people are beautiful forever. (Maybe Sophia Loren. I already see a bit of a chipmunk quality along Nicole Kidman's jawline.) Beauty not only fades but it is as ephemeral as zits and bloating. She has a point that should be taken seriously when she says that she tires of being compared to beautiful people.
If she has never been a beautiful person, I want to assure her that I have known a few and they have their problems too, including men who will dump them when they are forty because they were only with them for the trophy aspects anyway. No smart woman wants to be with a jerk like that except for the same reason nonblockheads write.
LW, your boyfriend will love you IF he loves you. He will respect you IF he respects you. Pretzel shape is for snacking and yoga and not for people. Only make the changes you are comfortable making.
As to Cary's advice, I don't think he could not be more wrong. If the LW enters into critiquing other women with her boyfriend, she becomes part of the problem that women have to deal with when they feel that they must continually groom themselves to please men. It will not boost her self-esteem; it will undermine it. Another thing that will undermine a woman's self-esteem is being with a man who does not love her (for the most part) for who she is. Emily has a good point when she says, in effect, that we should be with the people who are right for us.
We can request anything. Others can say no. We, too, can say no.
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Let's objectify together?
I demur. What kind of pandering advice is this, Cary? I read through the comments, too, and for the most part everyone's tripping all over themselves trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Yuck... Now, throw me to the lesbians!
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Emily can I marry you?
Or she might say "Wow - I think it's hot that you don't want me turned on by anything but you - let's get it on, sailor."
Then they might make sweet monkey love til the break of dawn.
I am laughing my ass off. I'm totally straight but I'm attracted to a sense of humor as we know ALL women are...so you wanna' make sweet monkey love?
BTW Andrea Dworkin + Rush Limbaugh = teh hawtness
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Someone may have said this already...
but from the juvenile tone of a lot of the comments I doubt it.
He probably does not realize he's being obvious. In a friendly way, tell him in a friendly way "hey, I wish you'd be more discreet about ogling girls". This will most likely embarass him into ratcheting it down to a quick glance. If he's embarassed enough to deny it, don't start an argument. Just drop the subject--trust me you will have made your point.
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Grow up!
The man is an oaf. So what if all men look? If he's so obvious about it that he's making his girlfriend uncomfortable, how is staring at and rating the women herself going to help? The thought of a woman rating another woman just to keep a man gives me the creeps! And think of the poor objects of their coordinated staring. I can't imagine why a woman would want to enable, much less participate, in such boorish behavior.
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You know, as a male,
I appreciate knowing that I'm swine, stupid, sex-crazed, and so animalistic that I have to be trained like the dog before I can be taken out in public. I'm so glad all these generous women are here to tell me what a terrible creature I am. Without their help, I might never have known just how pathetic and puerile and immature and uncivilized and socially unacceptable I am because I have XY chromosomes.
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@ malthusan
Well do you stare at women in a way that is disrespectful, intrusive, juvenile, and obvious when you are with your wife or girlfriend? If you do you may be either swinish or doggish, but we don't know if you are trainable.
If you don't, why are you concerned?
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180 Degrees
When I was a young teacher, several of the male coaches had a bad habit of standing in the hallway between classes and making remarks to one another about the women teachers who were mostly young and relatively attractive.
One day, a group of us women teachers decided that we would stand in the doorway of our classrooms during passing period and, while holding clipboards, make check marks on blank pieces of paper while apparently looking at the male coaches.
When we were asked by those male coaches what we were doing, we said that we had decided to "rate" the men since they were obviously "rating" us.
You have never seen such shock on male faces! Thereafter, they may still have been looking, but they were much more circumspect.
Actually, I have no problem with my husband "looking." My only rule is "no drooling." I believe it's perfectly natural for someone to notice an attractive member of the opposite sex. The problem only arises when it is obvious and objectifying. Smart men will "look" but not "compare."