"certainly better in the sense that they are less likely to cheat on her with another woman"

Yes, but if they are going to cheat, then it's going to have to be with another man, and that's more dangerous (in terms of disease). I don't know how often guys in prison get conjugal visits...

:)

You said "However, what you are failing to realize is that this is a temporary thing-- once the relationship has developed, it is an open question who has more power." While I agree with that thought, I have to point out that anon seems to be focusing on that specific period -- so what comes after is irrelevant. He (I assume its a he?) is concerned with the perceived imbalance of power specifically during that initial time period where the couple has just met. If, I think he's saying, the man can't make it past that first hurdle, and future redress of that imbalance is a moot point. Of course, he also seems to be saying that men will lie in order to make it past that first hurdle and into the sack, and seems surprised that the women are later disappointed when they discover those lies.

I think this speaks to a fundamental difference in how some men and some women approach relationships. Certainly, it speaks to a difference between how that man (anon) and this woman (me) approach them! I never thought of it this way, but yes, I do put up hurdles for men to jump on their way to my bed, and if they miss one, they're out of the race. I don't necessarily do it conciously, but I do it. For instance, I will feel out what a guy thinks on issues like feminism, politics, etc. Why? Well, in the immediate sense, because the idea of sleeping with someone who holds certain view strikes me as rather icky, but the real answer is about how I approach relationships. Unlike some people, whether men or women, I never have sex *just* for the sake of the sex. If I don't think there's the possibility of long-term relationship of some kind with the particular man in front of me, I'm not going to sleep with him, no matter what lovely attributes he may have. It seems to me that anon is disturbed by this outlook, as the more women who have it, the less likely it is that he will make all the hurdles (without being dishonest) and get laid. I can sympathise with that. But, what it seems to boil down to is that we're looking for very different outcomes -- anon wants to get laid, I want to have a relationship that includes getting laid, but really goes way beyond that. Ultimately, he may want the relationship thing, too, but in the meantime, he just wants to get laid, and its not happening with the frequency he would prefer!

I see what you're saying about what happens after that initial period being irrelevant to Anon's point, but I mentioned it because, from all of his posts, he seems to think there's some grand conspiracy on the part of women to silence men's opinions and withhold sex unless they toe the (feminist) line. I'm just pointing out that, as relationships progress, the balance of power tilts in various ways (and obviously, in a healthy relationship, there is no difference in power and power isn't even an issue)-- so it's no grand conspiracy to subjugate men.

And I hear what you're saying about feeling out how a man thinks about particular issues before sleeping with him. But the key point of that is that you're not saying "if you don't agree with me about x, y, and z, you don't deserve to have sex and I'm going to tell every member of the "female community" (whatever THAT is) not to sleep with you." You're saying, "if your views are not compatible with mine, I decline to continue to develop an intimate relationship with you, and part of that continued development is a sexual relationship."

Every woman has her own idea about what she's looking for. So the fact that we actually have some standards (and frankly, based on what Anon has said, it sounds like he's pissed that women have some standards but the men he knows or is talking about have only one: that the woman is attractive) beyond "does this guy bathe" and "does he have a pulse" shouldn't stop any particular man from finding particular women who like the qualities he has, unless he is a genuine jerk. The kid-lover who doesn't work for me is another women's perfect guy; the man who absolutely doesn't want kids would work fine for me, but that would probably be a turn-off for a lot of women. And so on.

If there is some subset of guys out there who can't ever get laid because the minute they open their mouths EVERY woman they've ever talked to becomes turned off and runs, that sounds like a problem with those men, not with the women. Anon seems to think the problem is with us.

If there is some subset of guys out there who can't ever get laid because the minute they open their mouths EVERY woman they've ever talked to becomes turned off and runs, that sounds like a problem with those men, not with the women. Anon seems to think the problem is with us.

lww, this totally sums up anon's problem. His lack of success isn't the result of some grand conspiracy -- it's that he's turning people off and needs to work on that.

the reason women don't focus on the getting laid part is becaue they don't have to, they can take getting laid for granted. The reason men do focus on it is because they can't take it for granted.

a man can take a real interest in any normal woman who is genuine sexually intersted in him (not "just sex" that is another way of stigmatizing the male pov while denying that there is a legitimate one which differs from the female pov), unless there is someone MORE appealing for whatever reason who is also taking an interest (this is the problem, one of them anyway, men find TOO MANY women appealing). Women require more. Men used to be able to make up this difference by making use of the social/economic/cultural privilidges they have to enhance their, at least apparent, appeal. Now it's down to looks and sexual charisma alone and the fact is women require a higher dose to get a result than men do. A perfect example is fat people, a woman who has 50% or more body fat can still have a sex life (her choices may be somewhat constrained but she can still have one), an equivalent man, unless he posses unusual qualities, cannot. Maybe the level of interest women took in average men in the past was "unnaturally high", who knows.