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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
this is the heart of the entire matter. Just because someone has the power to compel conformity doesn't necessarily mean they will be happy with the result. Obviously they prefer it to the alternative at the time.
This literally cannot be true, since the number of women who give up men and sex when there are people willing to sleep with them is many many many times the number of men who do the same. I'm not claiming women aren't genuinely interested and highly motived (in some cases anyway) but this is yet again another absurd claim, in violation of the plain facts clearly in evidence, that there aren't differences that matter.
You said: "women on the other hand will tend to judge a man at least somewhat negatively if other women say he is a chauvanistic asshole. The way this plays out is that in a social setting men believe, correctly I think, that if they say the wrong thing it will reduce their chances of social/sexual success/opportunities with the female "community" in question. Women, correctly I think, believe that their appeal depends on attractiveness and sexual charisma and won't be much affected one way or the other by what they say or don't say."
I may not really be qualified to speak on the first point you make, since I have always lived in fairly large cities, where there are just too many people for there to be a single "female community." Certainly, in places where there is a dense population, a guy isn't going to ruin his chances with all the women around if he has a bad break up with or encounter with one woman. There are too many other women around who don't know her. Also, keep in mind that even in a fairly insular community, like, say, a smallish high school, there are always different groups, so there will be groups of women who don't like each other, wouldn't listen to each other's advice, etc. I have also never been interested in dating any of the former boyfriends of friends of mine, nor have I ever had a female friend interested in dating a former boyfriend of mine.
About your second point, it illustrates exactly what I personally do not like about your entire point of view, as it has been expressed here: MY APPEAL GOES WAY WAY WAY BEYOND ATTRACTIVENESS AND SEXUAL CHARISMA. YOU believe that all a woman is is attractiveness and sexual charisma-- this is clear because you said that we "correctly" think this. I would rather gouge my eyes out with a kitchen knife than date a man who doesn't care what I say or don't say. That is exactly the kind of man I try to avoid at all costs. I want to be related to AS A PERSON, not as a piece of meat. Maybe there are some women who only want to be viewed as sex objects, but I don't know any of them.
Anon says: "the number of women who give up men and sex when there are people willing to sleep with them is many many many times the number of men who do the same."
Lets posit that this is true (and, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it *is* true, though I would wonder to what extent the reasons were biological vs cultural) -- what then? Are you implying that women have some responsibility to change that equation? That, because men are less able to "give up (wo)men and sex" that women should give them more sex, whether they want to or not, because men aren't motivated to do without? Because, thats what it sounds like you are saying. If thats not what you intend to say, could you correct my impression, please?
If that is your argument, then I have to ask -- why is it not men's responsibility to learn to do without, if there are no women willing to have sex with them? I mean, if I don't want to have sex with a particular man (or any man) its not like I'm denying him something he has a right to. "I want it" is not a right. Nor am I responsible for whatever lengths said man may choose to go to, including changing his attitudes, to try to persuade me to have sex. If he thinks getting sex is more important than maintaining his philosophical position, I can sympathise with his desire, but am not obligated to fulfill it.
It seems to me that what you are doing is reducing sex to a transaction. Women have something men want, and by golly, they should be willing to sell it -- and cheaply, too! But, sex doesn't work like that. At least, it doesn't work like that for many (if not most) women, and probably not for many men, either. It may, for you, and I don't have a problem with that, but I don't think it is going to work very well for you. The bottom line *may* be that men and women, as classes, don't want exactly the same things from a sexual experience. I'm not implying the old, "Men want sex and women want love," canard, but only that there may be subtle diffrences in what, really, any two people sizing one another up as sexual partners are looking for. And, it may be that what any particular woman is looking for is simply less available than what any particular man is looking for. That would result in the dynamic you have described, in which "women" have more opportunities for sex than "men" simply because more women have what men are looking for, and fewer men have what women are looking for. Howeve, even if that is true, its hardly womens' fault that they are, in essence, pickier (on average) than men. It may not seem fair, from your perspective, but neither is blaming that on women.
You said: "And we want the guy - believe it or not, we don't want to live without you guys anymore than you want to live without us.
This literally cannot be true, since the number of women who give up men and sex when there are people willing to sleep with them is many many many times the number of men who do the same. I'm not claiming women aren't genuinely interested and highly motived (in some cases anyway) but this is yet again another absurd claim, in violation of the plain facts clearly in evidence, that there aren't differences that matter."
Just because a woman doesn't sleep with every man who wants to sleep with her doesn't mean she doesn't like sex or want sex or want men. Do you know how much sex I would have to have if I had to sleep with every man who wanted to sleep with me, just to prove to you that I like sex? And how many icky men I would have to sleep with? I like sex quite a lot (just ask my very happy boyfriend) but I still wouldn't go home with a random man for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post-- fear of being raped or hurt, not to mention fear of diseases and pregnancy. In general, men are larger than women, and even a man the same size as me is considerably stronger. Sex generally happens in a private place, which means I am not going to be sleeping with men I don't know and trust, because it would mean putting myself in the situation of being alone, in my home or his, with a relative stranger who has the ability to beat me or kill me if he should so desire. So, yeah, I turn down opportunities for sex. For a woman, that's just sensible behavior. The first time I went over to my boyfriend's house (when we hadn't been seeing each other very long), I left his name and address with my friends and told them that if I didn't call, they should bust down the door with my German Shepherd leading the way. It might sound paranoid, but that's a precaution women have to take.
I don't think there have been any studies done to find out which sex would be more ok with living without the other, but I can tell you that, while finding relationship partners is a big issue for both my male and female friends, my female friends think about it more and talk about it more as something really important to them.
I think you're way off base to say it is an absurd claim that women we men as much as men want women.
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