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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
"The original issue was the guys (probable)jealousy and insecurity regarding his own sexual opportunities, this brought up the more general question of whether the average woman has sexual/social leverage and opportunites which the average man does not have, this was, absurdly, denied." First, I didn't deny it-- I actually agreed, based on my own experience, that I would have a much easier time finding someone to sleep with, if that's my priority, than a comparably attractive guy. The problem with what you're saying, though, is that it reduces everything to sex. Yes, I might be able to sleep with any number of guys, but forming relationships with men is not just about sex. If there's a guy that I like, I want to be with him because of lots of different qualities that he has-- his sense of humor, his taste in music or movies or books, common interests, etc., etc.-- men are not interchangeable penises. So if I want this particular guy to like me, I have to make him like my personality, treat him well, listen to what he has to say and consider his thoughts and feelings respectfully, etc. Same as how a man would treat a woman he wants to like him. If I don't do those things, a self-respecting guy (the only type I would want to be with in the first place) will move on and then, yeah, I could sleep with some other guy, but I don't want to sleep with that other guy, I wanted the first guy (and for reasons beyond sex)! So it's in our best interests to treat you guys well, just as it is in your best interests to treat us well. And it's in my best interests to treat other women well, if I want female friends, and the same goes for guys looking for male friends.
Again, I say this last thing as sincere advice and not meaning it as a put-down: the fact that you reduce these things to just sex, and that you seem to think that women view all men as interchangeable penises so there's no need to treat any one particularly well because another penis just like it will come along, says a lot about how you see women. It implies to me that you see women as basically interchangeable, and that you're looking for someone to just sleep with and not someone to form a friendship with. If that's what you're looking for, it is probably possible to find some women with the same priorities; there's nothing wrong with it if both parties are upfront that that's what they're looking for. But I don't think it makes sense to get bent out of shape if you can't find a woman who has those same priorities-- we're entitled to be looking for what we're looking for, and just as it's your perogative to not get into a relationship you don't want to be in, its the woman's perogative to not have a one night stand if she's not into it. Getting to know women is just like getting to know other men-- some you will like and they will like you, and some you will not like and they will not like you. But before you see them as women, see them as people-- that will probably help you toward your ultimate goal of getting laid. (And believe me, I completely understand about needing to get laid. I have been there and it is not fun. But even so I wouldn't go out and sleep with the first random guy I found attractive enough, because there is too much risk involved. But boy was the next guy who asked me out [and who I continued to see because I liked him and who stuck around because he liked me] lucky!)
Now, if you don't have these views of women, and instead are saying these things because the women you have dealt with have all been complete jerks who treated you like crap even though you treated them well, then I am sorry that happened to you, and keep treating women well (like human beings who you respect and like!) and keep looking for a woman who will do the same for you.
After reading your responses back to folks writing in, I think I am in love with you! I admire the fact that you were straight up without thinking through whether to lie in the first instance. That seems like a good foundation to a lasting relationship to me right there.
I thought of "Chasing Amy" immediately when I read your letter, too, and I do not think that I have anything I could add to what Kevin Smith had to say through the movie generally or as Silent Bob. As Kevin Smith has talked about, it was a signficant issue to him, and something he had to do some thinking about. And, to me anyway, he did some great thinking.
It sounds great that your actually got to couples therapy. I hope you have a good, honest-to-God couples therapist, and not some general practice psychotherapist that thinks they know how to do couples.
have influence over individual women to whom they have demonstrated their appeal and with whom they have established some sort of relationship whereas women can enforce right speech and behavior (at least regarding open discussion) over men collectively (at least face to face and among men who are identifiable) by issuing general threats of sexual banishment for incorrect behavior/attitudes, and it works. I've never said anything about my personal situation.
It really would make it a LOT EASIER to have a productive reality based conversation about what really goes on.
You said: "whereas women can enforce right speech and behavior (at least regarding open discussion) over men collectively (at least face to face and among men who are identifiable) by issuing general threats of sexual banishment for incorrect behavior/attitudes"
I'm not sure what you mean by threats of sexual banishment. How can I threaten a man or group of men with sexual banishment if I am not having a sexual relationship with him/them? Believe me, I would not have the gall to tell a man or group of men "if you don't agree with me, no sex for you" because 1) if I am having sex with that particular man, I am risking losing sex, which I enjoy, and saying such a thing is manipulative, 2) if I am not having sex with him, or I am talking to a group of men, the general reaction would likely be: "As if I/we wanted to have sex with you in the first place! Get over yourself!" And that would be totally appropriate.
If you're saying that you perceive that men in general live under the general threat that if they don't behave, women will all start withholding sex, I can assure you that there is no recognized agreement between women to behave that way, and if that petition were circulated, no way would I sign it.
Now, I am free to say, and I have said, and I will say again, that I personally will never sleep with or have any other sort of relationship with a man who espouses misogynistic (that mean "woman hating") views. [I'm assuming the incorrect behavior you're referring to is what I'd call "misogynistic" views, and some others might call "traditional" or "old-fashioned". If I'm wrong, forgive me.] That is my perogative. Other women are also free to say that. If so many of us have decided that we do not like having intimate relations with men who behave as if they hate us just because we are women, and that makes men who do display this behavior hard up for sex, then those men either have to work to find whatever women out there don't care about that kind of thing, or get used to masturbation, or decide to reexamine their views, IF THEY DECIDE THAT IS SOMETHING THEY ARE WILLING TO DO IN ORDER TO HAVE SEX. That is in caps because it's important. No one is forcing them to do anything, but if they want to be attractive to modern women, acting like they hate them probably isn't the way to go about it, so they have to decide if their hatred is more important, or if sex is important.
I am also free to say "I will never sleep with a man who does not shower, clean his clothes, or brush his teeth." Again, my perogative. I would guess that most women would agree with that position. That doesn't mean that we have some sort of conspiracy against men with no personal hygiene. And I don't think you would object to our rejecting men who reek because they have never bathed. This is a similar type of thing-- you might be perceiving a general feeling, on the part of a majority of women, to not be interesting in dating or sleeping with men who act hostile toward us, but it's not that we've gotten together and decided to banish that type of man. We just each, individually, as a result of changing standards of appropriate behavior (as in, now women have to be treated as equal human beings) have decided that we don't find that type of man attractive.
This sounds to me like a case of someone whose attitudes toward women are very, very out of step with the times. That is not our fault, and there is nothing wrong with all of us, nothing for us to apologize for, and no change we ought to make. I would hope that you wouldn't have an intimate relationship with someone who behaved as if she hated you, and I think women deserve that same right.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
