Letters to the Editor
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disliking specific women is not the same as disliking "men, women (or) minorities"
i can't stand it when somebody says:
i don't like blacks.
i don't like asians.
i don't like mexicans....
i am fine with someone saying "i am not attracted to men" or "i don't find women hot" since that is personal, however i expect them to be fair and courteous in the non-sexual part of their lives.
so why is it bugging me that somebody lumps all women together and dislikes them in the non-sexual sense? (underlined by the fact that sexually the response is more mixed).
i know in my life i like a certain kind of non-nonsense women -- usually straight, but not passive or fem in her daily style (i don't care about in bed!) and fiercely creative. i like a little cynicism, a little wit, a little mercy in my grrl friends. i like them to like themselves and other interesting women, but not be self-absorbed or vain.
i am bored by trivial and superficial babes. so yeah, i have some disdain for a subset of women. but i would not refuse to hire or vote for someone based on gender alone.
would you?
- sign me "troubled to see you don't like a whole group of humans"
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Goes both ways.
I won't rehash the sensible remarks made about how being feminist and female cannot and should not dicate liking women, beyond saying "agreed."
I don't have the degree of loathing that the young lady describes, but I have had mirror experiences inasmuch as I tend to get along better with women than with men. I don't have a lot of patience with typical macho BS about women, sports, fighting, whatever. But as life goes by I've made good friends of both genders, and I notice that the guys I get on with now tend to define being "a man" the same way I do: you stand up for what you believe in, you honor your responsibilities to your wife and children, and -- very importantly -- you pick your battles over sporting events carefully to make sure you still see the important games.
Unrelated thought: I am sure that for women who choose not to have children, it can be frustrating to see their friends who breed become absorbed in child-rearing. A little understanding, please, because it's hard not to, and those friends might be rather embarrassed about having nothing else to say. I certainly notice that my wife and her friends have been going into overdrive with reading groups and moms' nights out and so on, to make sure that it doesn't happen, and do it on top of spending a lot of time and energy to try and steer these little horrors into being good people.
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Just because you're a "..." doesn't mean you're a nice person
I'm not sure this is worth all the huff and bother that the letter writer is exhibiting. I am reminded of a casual comment that a friend of mine made in college, that still shines out as a pivotal moment of moving into adulthood. We were attending a Les-Bi-Gay monthly movie night at my (very uptight Catholic) college, and as we were leaving, my friend muttered in my ear, "I don't really have anything to say to these folks [the other people at the meeting]. Just because you're gay doesn't mean I have anything to say to you."
The fact that a person is female doesn't make her interesting. "Femaleness" isn't a particularly interesting quality, in fact its common as dirt. Being female also doesn't make you a nice person, or thoughtful, or cultured, or any more worthy of admiration than the other schmoes I walk past on the street every day. Some women are pretty repugnant, characterless individuals that I wouldn't cross the street to pee on if they were on fire. Likewise with any other person who is part of a historically maligned or oppressed social or political group: your mere identification as "XYZ" doesn't mean you're a nice person, and it doesn't mean I have to like you. To illustrate, there is a blind guy on my bus every day who is an annoying jerk, and I can't stand him. He's a judgemental pain in the ass who makes cute remarks throughout the entire ride. I don't think my dislike for this man diminishes my generally socially-responsible worldview in any way; I just don't like him.
One other thing that struck me about the letter: once you're out of college, philosophical conversations get really old, really fast. People actually find talking about mundane things like relationships and kids and jobs more relevant and relatable than self-involved navel-gazing. Waxing philosophical is only interesting when you are the one doing it. Listening to other people go on PoMo rants is torture.
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I'm with "troubled"
Those of you who dislike women need to seriously take a good hard look at yourselves and get some help. You are damaged, and, as such, probably damaging to those around you. I'll bet you don't think your prejudices affect how you treat other women. You would be wrong. I just left a "dream job" because my boss was one of you. Any idea I had was met with complete scorn, where the same idea presented by a man was "brilliant." The examples are endless and my experience as a woman working for her was not unique. Her blatant selective antagonism was obvious to everyone (and yes, men) but her.
I do have a "gaggle" of girlfriends with whom to discuess foreign policy, politics, literature, art and yes, shoes. There are many of us. Do you have the same disdain for men who discuss foreign policy, politics and sports?
I personally don't care that you don't want to be my friend for obvious reasons. You sound hateful and boring. However, you are more than likely making someone miserable (not least yourself) and you are just one more obstacle to the true equality of women, whether you think so or not.
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You'll probably work it out for yourself.
I was so enthused by this letter that I had to respond.
First of all, thanks to Carey for his intelligent handling of the question. I too am a little bit of a female misogynist and I think I have some to add.
It IS not inherently bad to admit to yourself that you have a problem with women. It's what you do with that information that counts. And I understand what you mean about women behaving in a shallow manner. One thing I can say in our defense, something that you might consider, is the possibility that gossip and chit chat CAN BE a very complicated, elaborate messaging system for women that most men are not interested in. Gossip is often an attempt to map and investigate complex social structures. I don't believe that all gossip is shallow. In fact, I believe that our society DEFINES intelligence through the masculine. In other words, because gossip is more commonly a feminine habit it is automatically disregarded as unimportant.
I think you'll be okay. It's good to admit your biases and deal with them.