Letters posted here are associated with the following article:

227
Letters
Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:00 AM

Dudes try "dating Darwinism"

An author argues that angry young men are becoming assholes to try to get women.

The letters thread is now closed.

View:
Friday, November 21, 2008 05:53 PM

@ Brightstar

I know some will say the examples of women I cite are not true feminists. That is irrelevant, these women identify themselves in this manner because something about feminism resonates with in them

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree 100% with this. I can't get any idea, claim that I agree with it, and then go on to do the exact opposite of that idea. Not if I'm honest anyway. If I do that, I'm actually betraying those who believe in that idea, and if some like you judges them by judging me, then the judgement is simply wrong. To me, that's like 2+2=4.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:01 PM

@ AKA Smith

We (she and I) are trying to figure out what is wrong with him. In 1960, we would think nothing of this. This isn't 1960.

I suppose you're afraid he is just 'a player' trying to get something and who will disappear afterwards? But, after all, saying nice things to someone you (presumably) like is not necessarily The Game, is it? Or are there other signs that this guy might not be good?

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:04 PM

@ dick dworkin

But I see here women who are not trying to outlaw porn and prostitution (quite the contrary, they may enjoy the former and be in favor of legalizing/decriminalizing the latter) and who also call themselves feminists, so I don't think it's a women vs. men issue or even a feminists vs. men one. And the central issue, if I understand your worldview, would remain anyway--big demand, little offer, high prices.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:05 PM

it is unsolvable in the same way that the problem of metabolism is unsolvable

some people have to eat very little to stay healthy and some people can eat quite a lot and stay healthy. Still, it is better to understand what is really going on and make the best of it that you can than to do otherwise, I think. As many people, for some reason, seem very eager to point out to me, there is usually something that can be done to improve any situation. Everybody, pretty much, is better off living in a rich peaceful society than in the alternative even if someone else is, mostly, in charge. Anyway there isn't any choice.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:08 PM

@ dick dworkin

It seems that you're worried about sincerity then--about women really understanding what the world is like for men, and men really understanding what the world is like for women, and neither trying to claim victimhood status over the other as a gender but only in specific cases where it would be justified. OK, I can agree with that. But I would maintain that, if a man accepts your view of the asymmetry between male and female desires (big demand, small offer), then the 'right' thing to do would also be to stop complaining about it, since it is simply a normal, expectable consequence of the law of offer and demand plus your view of the gender asymmetry.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:10 PM

it doesn't divide completely along gender lines, but, apart from religious fantatics it is mostly women

making a fuss about these things, I think.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:10 PM

@ dick dworkin -- a final sentence I forgot to add to the last post

In other words, it's not simply 'evil women' not understanding men; it's offer and demand playing to an expectable conclusion. If your asymmetry went the other way round -- if women wanted sex from men a lot more than men want sex from women -- men would do the same things to women, I suppose.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:18 PM

no, it isn',t it's about people getting the best deal they can get out of a situation, or trying to

basically we have gone from a world where life was hard for everyone and men and women had both real power and real problems to a world where life is much easier for everyone but men have very little power (obviously I'm talking about advanced socieities that function as such, not Afghanistan of a 3rd world slum).

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:35 PM

@ dick dworkin, re "it's mostly women"

I don't know, in my experience it was mostly traditionalists--when it was women, it was usually traditionalists ('we're spoiling sex for the young by selling it to consummerism' or something like that--not necessarily the religious line, though the religious line one does still get credence in America). Of course some ('sex-negative') feminists did go into the battle, but they don't look like a majority, either within feminism or in the groups pushing against the issues you raised. I'll bet most women against pornography/prostitution are e.g. also pro-lifers.

Friday, November 21, 2008 06:40 PM

@ dick dworkin, re "ongoing change"

Even within your world view (gender asymmetry->unhappiness for men), I don't see how men have less power than women except in the sexual sphere (because of your asymmetry); in all other areas I don't think they're so little empowered. Also, notice that the 'world we came from' (with, as you put it, men and women having both real power and real problems) was in many ways quite similar to the world in Afghanistan and the 3rd-world slums that you don't want to take into account, at least with respect to what I think you mean by 'men and women having both real power and real problems'. Both actually don't look very good.

Friday, November 21, 2008 07:05 PM

if men have (much) less power in the sexual/emotional/romantic sphere and men and women have equal power in every other

then men have less overall and when people are (relatively) healthy and don't have to struggle for basic survival they have more time and energy to focus on, and be bothered by, other things.

Friday, November 21, 2008 07:10 PM

Still from the way you describe the (sexual) imbalance

(leaving aside whether it is simply 'less' or 'much less' -- this is a subjective issue I think) it would seem to be an unavoidable consequence of hormonal differences and thus not to be blamed on anyone or complained about. Rather men should concentrate on giving women what they want so as to get from them what they want--and that would be a normal transaction, under the laws of offer and demand, and nobody would have to complain about how unfair life is to them. Or am I getting something wrong? (Of course, I think we're leaving a whole universe of emotional/psychological/maturity/growth issues aside, but then again this was a precondition to basing the discussion only on the imbalance/asymmetry that you see between men's and women's sexual impulses).

Friday, November 21, 2008 07:10 PM

No, Asehpe, that's not it.

I suppose you're afraid he is just 'a player' trying to get something and who will disappear afterwards? But, after all, saying nice things to someone you (presumably) like is not necessarily The Game, is it? Or are there other signs that this guy might not be good?

Actually, I am afraid he wants to marry her and he is a bit ahead of her there. She likes him ... she thinks he's nice ...

I went to the Tarot reader. There was the Hierophant, the three of cups, the Lovers, the two of cups ... and so on.

Call me crazy, but dating and having a good time is one thing. I am just one of those people who when the word marriage is mentioned gets the shivers.

I am not ready to lose my little girl. :( I am afraid she could be talked into something serious that she is not old enough for. This guy is fifteen years her senior.

Maybe I am just worrying too much. I am a worrier. I have lots of little fine lines in the palm of my hand. Maybe he's really gay. Maybe he's impotent. Maybe insanity runs in his family ... which wouldn't be good, considering my family.

Most Active Letters Threads

541

Everybody hates mommy

We're "stroller Nazis." We're whiny "breeders." Why is there so much contempt for mothers these days?
374

Rule-of-law extremism engulfs primitive Eastern Europe

Why would the new President of Lithuania demand investigations of CIA black sites in her country?
317

The extreme secrecy of the federal courts

Judges are not only permitted, but required, to conceal anything the government declares to be secret.
217

Greg Craig and Obama's worsening civil liberties record

A new Time account of the fall of Obama's White House counsel sheds much light on rule of law issues.
170

Praying for Obama's death

Pastors are invoking Psalm 109 -- "May his days be few" -- in hopes of saving our country, and our souls

View all »

Letters Help

Currently in Salon