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Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:00 AM

Dudes try "dating Darwinism"

An author argues that angry young men are becoming assholes to try to get women.

The letters thread is now closed.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 06:17 PM

@mamis62

Hey man... better late than never.

This is my last post - honestly.

I became a reformed nerd when I decided (at 17) that I wanted all the things I did not have in High School -

Money, a lot of money.

Sex, a lot of sex.

And Respect. Not in that "hey dude, you killed that economics test way or I respect how you treat people way" but absolute fucking alpha male, crush your balls and feed them to you respect.

College was great... and I have never looked back.

I don't "friend" girls, I keep a small circle of very close friends and and I try not to take too much bullshit.

I work towards what I want - both in myself and in the greater world at large.

It means I am very Type A and very driven.... but in my mind, the worst thing in the world is being mediocre.

It might be a little extreme... but it keeps me going and it keeps me motivated.

Thursday, November 20, 2008 06:43 PM

The real issue is women are not men

Women are human beings, with real feelings, wants and needs.

There are no rules on courtship -- those only worked when women had no option but nunhood or marriage.

Now adays each and every woman is different, and wants something different, expecting them to act a certain way, or for dating rules to work -- tells me you are too lazy, you just want to get laid with out any effort. To you a woman is not a person, but a fuck toy. You can't be bothered to get to know them.

Women are not men, they don't want what you want.

Your sexual frustration is just that, its yours. And no one else is responsible for it in anyway. Hating women because you are frustrated is just a way to avoid responsibility to yourself, to explore what you really want - and how you need to change. No body wants to change, no one likes self change, but since absolutely no woman on this planet owes you anything -- period. You can either figure out what you need to do to change or live with your frustrations. Most men opt for the "Player" crap -- here is a hint that is not true change, you didn't become a better person, just a manipulative bastard - and quality women will know it and avoid you. After awhile you'll get bored of screwing idiots, and you will be back to square one, with a need to change yourself. Except now you are lot older.

Thursday, November 20, 2008 06:55 PM

@ panders

I think the problem is too many people still go starry-eyed to the dating game, expecting expectations (ha!) to be universally shared and full of Rules book instructions. Your approach is quite commendable--in my experience, if you do this (keeping a good level of mutual respect, i.e. not simply 'hey I want to fuck, wanna come with me?'), and if you treat people as individuals, most of the problems end up disappearing. But -- blame society, culture, gender stereotypes, whatever -- it seems most people don't do that. Hence the tragedy, and the need to find scapegoats.

Thursday, November 20, 2008 06:58 PM

If there are no rules

can women stop complaining about the behavior of men?

can women not complain if a guy just says "hey nice shoes wanna fuck?"

Can women not complain that guys just aren't romantic enough or "most men are horrible lovers". Because men aren't allowed to complain about such things that women do without being called losers or misogynists.

Thursday, November 20, 2008 07:00 PM

@ zoltan newberry: Please observe hedgie's last post.

He has no need of love. The strong sociopathic streak that it takes to succeed in his world makes it quite unnecessary. As a matter of fact, I hope he keeps single and chasing down easy sex.

Do you really want to wish a guy like him on some poor unwitting romantic?

It is better that people keep to their own "kind." By this, I mean that idealists should marry idealists, romantics should marry romantics, practical types should look for other practical types, those who want the conventional, two or three kids and go-to-church-on-Sunday types should find each other and not make some agnostic miserable.

People needing other people may be the luckiest people in the world, but hedgie is happy in his world, doing terribly important stuff like making money and getting laid.

Don't try to rouse those types from their emotional slumber. Let them be. They would only wreak havoc on any normal woman seeking a normal relationship. Let them chase bimbos with boob jobs and playgirls who are of their ilk, who themselves don't want to get married or paired up but only laid. It is not only men who keep a tally of their conquests. Some women do to.

Of course many of them also have a significant sociopathic streak. The diagnosis of women like that has been vastly underestimated IMO, and often misdiagnosed as borderline disorder or narcissism. Really! There are women out there for hedgy.

However, for those young women wishing to avoid his type, here's a hint:

Players and PUAs refer to men as men or guys. In contrast, they refer to women as girls or females. They will almost never speak of women as women. They will never get real women. Every smart woman over 25 or 30 knows how to spot them. She may have wasted some of her youth on one of them, but only dummies keep going out with these guys and expecting love or committment.

I recommend that every woman who is actively dating read Neil Strauss's The Game, so that they will know how to spot bullshit liars when they encounter them.

Thursday, November 20, 2008 07:06 PM

Damn. So nicely and thoughtfully rendered by Ms. Clark-Flory,

almost giving hope to her belief in some fundamental capacity for growth and change in how we could be with each other, some unplugging-from, something transformational. Humans in crisis/chaos as a gift of feminism/scary unscripted territory tend to be more open to therapeutic suggestion for growth – change seems like a good idea at the time. But we are loaded with so much.

The barriers to authentic and autonomous intimacy and relatedness are ancient and about risk and vulnerability against safety and trust, more deeply about unconscious archetypes and their normative constructs of fecundity for women and of status for men. In our wildness, death was invited by the gravid female and by the unguarded, empathic male. Acts of love and relatedness become calculated risks.

"But really, that's a terrifying remark. and THAT is what guys don't get- what I was just saying about physical power.

Actually I DO get it. That is the REASON (along with the fact that they are the ones who get pregnant) why women have such biologically based different attitudes towards sex than men do. Figuring out what to do about it is the problem."

dick dworkin

No way out, of course. As if, anymore than death herself, the costs to unencumbered intimacy and freedom imposed by procreation - and its nearly pathological need for mating systems, male competion, pair-bonding, sacrifice of self to offspring - could be interrupted!

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