EXACTLY mirrors real life (or it does so rarely) but that doesn't mean it is meaningless. For the record lifelike, your analysis of my motives is totally inaccurate.

Girls who don't fit that norm don't have access to guys they would be interested in as human beings- they're too busy with hot, superficial girls.

So he is shallow, but you want him anyway.

And just HOW is this different than what you accuse men of being like?

the line that works, Brightstar, is an authentic one to someone you have some common ground with to talk about something interesting. If you surf, find people surfing and start talking. that's honest. And just cuz those girls aren't in clubs doesn't mean they wouldn't be possibly open to casual sex (or a relationship)

if you just want a slut in some club, just 'hi, you look fantastic. I'm ___' would probably work better than being gross.

...

And no, you don't scare me, you just make me sick and exhausted

. . . which is why all the rational, sensible suggestions here ("be yourself", "be considerate and she will be too", etc.) will not work necessarily, or even most of the time.

All I know is: at age 30 I decided to be more selfish, less patient, and more demanding. I never became an actual "asshole" -- that is beyond my abilities.

Before that, I generally was the pursuer, the women I ended up with were so-so, and (in legal terms) I was almost always the "dumpee" rather than the "dumpor".

After -- women came to *me*, they were way hotter and more devoted, and I never got dumped. Not once. It was I who would call things off.

http://cityrag.blogs.com/main/2008/11/the-cult-of-dou.html

"Hedgie" are you in this lineup?? Fess up! You know that post about Valtrex was aimed at you - you should respond to the word Valtrex like it's your name. Your pick up line should be "hey, baby, I make lots of money, so my Valtrex prescription is always filled. Wanna f**k?"

No matter how fantastic or humane a guy is, he's still shallow and selfish. No exceptions. None. At all.

If we didn't like them anyway, we wouldn't be straight women.

Actually I DO get it. That is the REASON (along with the fact that they are the ones who get pregnant) why women have such biologically based different attitudes towards sex than men do. Figuring out what to do about it is the problem.

I'd call that "having and communicating expectations/needs, having a backbone, and having a sense of self."

And I'd recomend it to everyone, regardless of gender.

And no, you don't scare me, you just make me sick and exhausted

I always hear women want that man who frightens them.

I also hear that love and hate stimulate very similar quarters of the brain.

Time for me to work on scaring and pissing women off some more.

It's not that women don't want men to hold a door open for them. We just don't want you to push past us in order to get to the door before us just so that you can open it for us and put us in our traditional place. And, if I get to the door before you and gesture for you to go before me for example because your hands are full, just walk through the damned door! Don't say "No no, we can't have any of that" and hold the door open with your foot until I give up in disgust, just so that we maintain the gender expectations.

And regarding "never before in human history", well, I have to say that IS exaggerating. "Human history" is usually defined as what we have written or oral records for. This leaves out large swaths of human heritage and experiences, from Aboriginals to stone age peoples. There's no real way to tell what might have gone on in cultures that we don't have records for. So saying this has never happened in human history is being quite disingenuous, even if technically accurate.

because they don't have a vagina.

Makes sense in some inscrutable way...

That's hilarious.

How on earth do guys like that EVER have sex? There's nothing remotely attractive or redeeming about them! lord, what fools these mortals be....

no matter which direction you are approaching it from

feminism has failed to provide men with a guidebook for navigating courtship

You mean, other than the expectation that men and women should treat each other as fully human?

Um, not any emotionally healthy women I know! What's attractive is a man who's safe and comforting, while still exciting. The friend who laughs at you but picks you up and hugs you when you fall on your butt. The one who teaches you something but doesn't judge you for needing to learn.

the only attraction 'frightening' guys have is when a girl already cares for him when she realize he's kind of scary, and her nurturing side wants to help him be better. And her investegative side wants to see who he is behind the piggishness, and secretly hopes he'll treat her differently than the other girls he sluts around with.

So you're probably dating children. Sorry but everyone under the age of 30 now is not only socially retarded but they're happy about that. If that makes me a grumpy old guy, fine. I got married at 20, bought a coop at 23, had a kid at 25, bought a house at 26.

"more selfish, less patient, and more demanding"

I'd call that "having and communicating expectations/needs, having a backbone, and having a sense of self."

Even young guys who CAN and do otherwise communicate expectations, have a backbone, and a sense of self are STEERED wrong by women when told to be nice to women.

'Nice' to most men implies leaving the selfish demands aside and being polite to women. This means NOT to constantly be commanding a set of expectations from the other, not constantly acting like nothing can move you because you are stubborn with your backbone, not always doing only what pleases you yourself.

I can see that women have no such illusions in return. They fully expect, I suppose to be able to communicate all the demands and needs they want, being stiff and unbending towards anything in the relationship, and having a strong sense of self, in essence, indulging your needs even if they hurt the other.

So, men, when told to be 'nice' to women, get a double whammy. They play nice with women who no longer really want them (because they are 'nice' in the worst sense of not being a prick with backbone), yet they still get a full on assault of demands, backbone, and selfishness from the woman.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if all men truly acted like described above, there would be little if any real relationships between men and women. Instead there would be selfish pricks making demands of their woman until she tires of it.

and maybe that is the way it should be after all.