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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
I guess it is impossible for trolls to see the irony in shrieking and braying against marriage and women, while simultaneously idealizing it past the point any women (any human) could possibly live up to. A woman is presumably to service your needs, live with you, clean and cook for you, bear and raise your children -- but she deserves literally absolutely NOTHING ("not a dollar" sez Brightstar) when your marriage ends, you tire of her.
To reparaphrase what I had responded to on this above accusation...
One can complain about the imperfections of some institution and still revere the institution. God knows women bitch about men all the time, but they keep insisting they actually like men.
Used to be men and women worked side by side, working on a small business, raising family together.
Now it is "she superior, he inferior".
Gee, and you wimmin wonder why men are pissed?
Honestly, I love you. I have never read a post of yours on Salon that wasn't eminently sensible.
As an aside, my read on Brightstar is that he doesn't actually *hate* women, he is just deeply, deeply jealous of them and it causes resentment.
I am glad you see this.
I would not disagree with you. I am envious of the many freedoms and opportunities women have that men largely do not.
I think many guys feel this way, though few would admit it to themselves, or even are cognizant of their feelings on this. Even fewer would have the guts to outright state it since the classic script says "women=inferior, men=superior".
Or, the way my mom puts it to me when referring to MY situation: "I am free as a bird", in reference to the fact that I am unmarried, unattached, no kids, no divorces, etc, etc.
BUT I do not feel free. Not in several key ways I desire. I have referred to them before-- emotional or expressive freedoms, sartorial freedoms, sexual freedoms, reproductive freedoms, the freedom to feel OK in one's skin, that one has a perfect soul, the freedom not to be despised, the freedom to be trusted by [other] women and allowed into their inner expressive lives-- so I will not reiterate it.
I really do not hate women. I have long said, most of my friends when I was younger were female. The female inner life fascinates me far more than the typical male inner life. The saving grace as a guy, as I get older, is that I discover more guys who do have a freer inner life that is gender neutral. Men are also allowed more leeway as they get older.
@Brightstar
I have referred to them before-- emotional or expressive freedoms, sartorial freedoms, sexual freedoms, reproductive freedoms, the freedom to feel OK in one's skin, that one has a perfect soul, the freedom not to be despised, the freedom to be trusted by [other] women (men) and allowed into their inner expressive lives
Do you realise you have expressed what a lot of women would like? The freedom to feel OK in one's skin and that we have a perfect soul and don't wish to be dispised . . . .
The sad thing about this "war" is that I believe a large number of the combatants on either side would like much the same. Oh, there will always be the women seeking material gain, or the men seeking barbies, but most of us want peace with each other, respect, compasion and acceptance.
The problem is that men and women are in different skins, with different ostensible needs, and so we need to negotiate past all that with institutions that accommodate the unique needs of each sex, hopefully with some semblance of balance.
Classic societies are often more stable because both sides came to a truce and moved ahead together. The US is now in great turmoil because women no longer go for what they said they wanted, legal parity, but for more than that. They want to play men for asses. Fine, the pendulum will swing back, eventually balancing again.
It is great to seek out more freedoms, for either gender. but really, of the list I brought up, women are considerably ahead on most of these counts than are the men...
emotional or expressive freedomsmen are still told to be stoic or manly , sartorial freedoms, undisputable, as a first grade girl apocryphally said, "I feel sad that boys cannot wear skirts" sexual freedoms, The day I can stand somewhere and be hit up for sexual relations at the level typical women are, I can say there is parity. reproductive freedoms, Let's not even get into this one, okie? the freedom to feel OK in one's skin, Again, men have to put on an ACT, driven by women's demands that the man ACT like a man. Most men on the other hand, prefer a REAL woman who is just herself. that one has a perfect soul,Sorry, but it's been burned into me that men's souls are all imperfect and evil and women's are, if not perfect, close to it. there is no contest the freedom not to be despised, Again,take the average man and woman on the street, a woman has to WORK at it to be despised by men who know her, I get the sense I am prejudged and despised merely because I belong to the sex called "male", GUILTY BEFORE BEING PROVEN INNOCENT. the freedom to be trusted by the opposite sex and allowed into their inner expressive lives Probably about equal in both genders, admittedly, after all a lot of men leave women out of the men's inner lives too.
A woman I know in her twenties is dating a man almost twice her age. She has never dated a man of that age before, but she keeps seeing him because he is a nice, thoughtful person. However, she complains about lack of "chemistry." I asked her if she thought she had this feeling because of his age and she genuinely didn't know. However, it wouldn't surprise me if she did.
When I divorced, I was over 35. Because I am rather old-fashioned -- the faithful type -- dating seemed quite new to me. However, the rules seemed to have changed. All of that was a bit of an adjustment, but the most difficult thing was trying to find older men attractive -- and unmarried, of course. Ironically, it was younger men who asked me out. One, whom I turned down, was a mere twenty years old.
So I coasted along, dating somewhat younger men. In that entire time since, I have never dated a man who was older than me. In fact, I have rarely had a man who is older than me ask me out.
Now, at last, I look a bit more my age, and I JUST DON'T FIND OLD FELLAS THAT ATTRACTIVE.
I do wonder if other women have ever had that experience of having to adjust the idea of men's sexuality and attractiveness in their heads. I actually think older women look prettier than old men. (Maybe I should switch!)
Just musing a bit here, but it seems to me that the primary feature of aging for women under menopause age who don't smoke is that they get a bit fatter. This is not so unattractive. In pictures through the history of art (until our present obsession with thinness -- soon to go away in the coming depression) women have been shown as being plump and attractive. Marilyn Monroe was hardly thin. Take a look at those thighs! So getting fatter for women seems natural.
Also, even with more weight, women's gaits does not seem to change much (unless they get quite obese).
However, when men get fat, it is rather unpleasant. (Yes, I know it is awful to say so!) Their weight can be like a basketball in front of the abdomens. Since it does not generally distribute, they look rather like insects. Fat men move strangely, sort of stiff, with their bellies carried forward like an aggressive force. You have seen those fat cops who practically thrust their bellies at people as a form of physical assertion.
On the other hand, after fifty, women -- especially women who smoke -- tend to get more wrinkles. I don't think I am imagining this. I think it is because most men shave, which everyday is a process of exfoliation. It could also be because women use their faces more to express emotion.
I don't know what all this means or even if anyone else thinks of these things. It really is hard to get older and it is undeniable that people get judged by superficial things like looks and income. People who are still looking (sometimes desperately) but remain unmated must have a dreadful adjustment.
Frankly, they have my sympathy -- as long as they do not have any really annoying and whiny personal perspective that manifests as severe narcissism.
(We all know of whom I speak.)
The most obvious trait of narcissism is a railing against fate. Narcissists have a terrible time with things like aging or diminishing income because they think that they are entitled.
(Who do we know who acts as if he should be entitled?)
When we see someone obviously struggles with the ugly dregs of narcissism, we might feel a twinge of pit, but it is pointess to argue with them.
Really.
They can be in treatment for 10 years for their personality disorder and hardly make a dent in it. Old narcissists don't mellow. They just get desperate and bitter.
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