So I'd ask: do you think my generalization about shoppers is wrong?

On the simplest level, are men as likely to spend time browsing (book) stores as women?

I'm not sure....I get hand me down books...

I don't need a reading list, dress code, or anything else external to define myself as a woman. I can check my oil without having an identity crisis or worrying about how it will affect my ability to bake bread or comfort my child later. I sure as heck don't need detailed instructions on how to hug my friends! Nothing I read, wear or do (at least that's within my own comfort zone) can ever efeminate me.

Notice that I had to make up the word. There just isn't a female equivalent to "emasculate".

Personally, I think it's the great tragedy of masculinity, that it's something one does, puts on or otherwise assumes, not something one is. Male identity is taken on from the outside, like paint. Having a Y chromosome isn't enough. Having a penis and testicles isn't enough. Being taller, having one's center of gravity in one's chest, having greater muscle mass and more body hair doesn't cut it, either. You have to Do Masculinity, check the website, book, TV show or whatever manual you might decide to follow before you can even get dressed in the morning.

It isn't just tragic. It's also, from this woman's point of view, repulsive. It's hard to get aroused by pity, no matter how much money might be attached to the object of it.

I don't think it's just me, either. I don't think it's coincidence that the "Menaissance" is happening at the same time that singles' events are being called sausage fests because of the disproportionate number of men and men outnumber women by as much as 4 to 1 on the local dating sites.

Maybe this is something men need to work through. I don't know. What I do know is that I'm backing away slowly and getting on with life, as I clearly can't contribute to this in any functional way.

"sir, I'm sorry to butt in, and I'm not defending my, or any womans outlook on this issue...but generalizing that women love shopping is the same as generalizing that men don't love reading."

Not sure if there was a misunderstanding there...I don't have a problem with any of the generalizations, I have a question about the ACCURACY. I very much believe that there are social and cultural _differences_ between men and women, and acknowledging that is not inherently sexist.

If it's true that not one in a hundred man reads, I'd be interested to hear about that.

I'm certainly not arguing against making a generalization about differing reading rates between men and women.

So I'd ask: do you think my generalization about shoppers is wrong?

On the simplest level, are men as likely to spend time browsing (book) stores as women?

...which is that Dorian is a not-very-closeted gay man whose friendships are "invariably lethal" to more young men than to young women. :)

>However, that lack of knowledge never stopped male writers from writing about women--or pretending they knew enough about women to write about them.<

"No but it does prevent them from being taken seriously now."

Yeah, nobody takes folks like Wally Lamb or Arthur Golden seriously at all. And that guy who wrote about MADAME BOVARY--well, his reputation has fallen into total disrepute...:)

"No we don't like it that we aren't allowed to give a version of ourselves that conflicts with your agenda without being accused of nefarious motives or subjected to a smear and silencing campaign. Case in point: sexuality."

Er--no, you want your version of yourselves to go unquestioned and unchallenged, while you get the right to define everyone else by your ignorance of them. Sorry, real life doesn't work like that.

"The fact that you see more women than men in bookstores is because you're talking about "shopping," not "reading." Women more often enjoy "shopping" and like to go to stores and peruse the wares than men--men more often decide they want something and either order it or just hurry in, grab it, pay quickly, and dash out.

So...anyone here ever examine actual facts or data? Or are we just trash-talking here?"

sir, I'm sorry to butt in, and I'm not defending my, or any womans outlook on this issue...but generalizing that women love shopping is the same as generalizing that men don't love reading.

I don't like shopping, neither does any of the women in my family, neither does most of my friends. I know quite a few men who read, but they don't make it an everyday activity to relax, they would rather be outside or engage in some sort of activity like working on their car or playing basket ball or tattooing(like my boyfriend).

Shopping for me, is a living hell, and I like to make it short as possible. Having three kids in a store isn't exactly fun.

But, I admit, If its just me, and I'm shopping around for specifics, then I take awhile because I'm picky.

And I'm sure that can comply to both sexes...just like reading.

No but it does prevent them from being taken seriously now.

"you just don't like it that someone else gets to give their version of you"

No we don't like it that we aren't allowed to give a version of ourselves that conflicts with your agenda without being accused of nefarious motives or subjected to a smear and silencing campaign. Case in point: sexuality.

Yeah, they're targeted towards women, just as Tom Clancy is targeted towards men. But most of the books on this "manliness" list weren't written to a formula to sell to one gender--they were written to be read by both men AND women.

The idea that "Slaughterhouse-Five" is supposed to teach one about masculinity (as opposed to humanity) is laughable--Vonnegut did subtitle it "The Children's Crusade" for a reason.

Does anyone actually have any data on Tina's assertion that not one man in 100 reads?

I try not to let Tina's rampant sexism (and lunacy) bother me, but that shot got under my skin.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless.

Just because "chick lit" is a broad category of literature that targets women, it doesn't follow that that there aren't similar categories targeting men. Look at Tom Clancy, for example.

The fact that you see more women than men in bookstores is because you're talking about "shopping," not "reading." Women more often enjoy "shopping" and like to go to stores and peruse the wares than men--men more often decide they want something and either order it or just hurry in, grab it, pay quickly, and dash out.

So...anyone here ever examine actual facts or data? Or are we just trash-talking here?