doesn't much affect mens' sexual response to them. It's only an issue when we are discussing what women want men to do.

the point is, since it apparently needs to be spelled out, is that whatever women do or DON'T to maintain the house

doesn't much affect mens' sexual response to them. It's only an issue when we are discussing what women want men to do.

-- dick dworkin

The point Laurel, I and a few other women are making here is that for some women (us), it's not any more of an issue than it is for the men.

It's not so difficult, is it?

The study ONLY says that men doing more housework is ASSOCIATED with more sex in the marriage. It doesn't say why. So quit making it sound like women are giving out or withholding sex as a direct quid pro qo in exchange for housework.

As I commented previously, it makes sense that a woman who is less frazzled by doing full-time house, parenting, and career roles will be more up for sex.

but women can do whatever the hell they want and it won't matter.

If it were no more of an issue for women than it is for men then it would never be an issue at all. Men AND women would do as much or as little housework as they like without any penalty whatever their choice was, like women do now.

the point is that men are accountable to women for how the house is maintained

but women can do whatever the hell they want and it won't matter.

-- dick dworkin

so you're saying that if a man and a woman live together, and the man does all the housework while the woman watches TV, that would be okay with the man?

what actually happens though is that, because of innate biological gender differences in what males and females care about, they would BOTH be watching tv, or fucking, and no one would be cleaning the house.

yes, or at least he wouldn't stop fucking her because of it

what actually happens though is that, because of innate biological gender differences in what males and females care about, they would BOTH be watching tv, or fucking, and no one would be cleaning the house.

-- dick dworkin

And we get to the crux of the matter. In Dick Dworkin's world, men always want to fuck, women rarely, so women can withhold sex whereas men can't (or, if they can, they've not very inclined to).

Because of "innate biological gender differences."

Uh huh.

do you believe that of the many women who don't care about keeping a clean or orderly house there are lots of them going without sex from their husbands as a result of their husbands feeling too tired, frazzled, unsupported after spending so much time on housework? Unless this is the case your mockery seems unwarranted.

do you believe that of the many women who don't care about keeping a clean or orderly house there are lots of them going without sex from their husbands as a result of their husbands feeling too tired, frazzled, unsupported after spending so much time on housework? Unless this is the case your mockery seems unwarranted.

-- dick dworkin

Hey, I am readily admitting that some women do withhold sex to get what they want, and most men don't.

You say that this is because of innate biological differences -- I call bullshit on that.

what explains that fact? If the economy and the culture were different are you suggesting that lots of women would be lying on the couch drinking beer and watching sports while the men fluttered around them resentfully doing housework and feeling too unloved to have sex?

You seem to be acknowledging by implication that the situation I describe is vey unlikely

what explains that fact? If the economy and the culture were different are you suggesting that lots of women would be lying on the couch drinking beer and watching sports while the men fluttered around them resentfully doing housework and feeling too unloved to have sex?

-- dick dworkin

Whether you like it or not, men and women are taught gender roles from a very young age, such as how to express anger, frustration, how to get what you want, how to respond to insult. At later ages, they are taught how to relate to their sexuality, their looks, etc.

Even though there are some women like me who would never use sex as a tool to some other end than mutual pleasure, most women learn this as a manipulation technique, a way to get what they want, instead of other methods for getting what you want/other manipulative methods. On the whole, men are rarely taught that they are the gatekeepers of sexuality, that they have something to lose when having sex (virginity, honor, respect), much less that they can use sex as a tool to achieve certain goals. Most men's relationship with sex is completely different from that of most women.

I certainly think that in a radically different culture, what you describe is possible. Just reverse the gender roles.

What you attribute to innate gender differences I see as malleable taught societal roles. Thus, what you see as unchangeable I see as completely changeable.

women would be lying on the couch drinking beer and watching sports while the men fluttered around them resentfully doing housework and feeling too unloved to have sex?"

You seem reluctant to give a direct answer though, why do you suppose that might be?

Dick suggests that the household chore battles are attributed to innate differences in what men and women care about.

Certainly, I don't buy the idea of innate differences in valuing cleanliness. When you have a (traditionally) all-male group that has important work to accomplish, suddenly cleanliness and order become VERY important. (I am thinking of the military.)

It tends to be only when women are doing the cleaning that it becomes some trivial feminine peccedillo that men can't be bothered with.